Numbers behind belt drive and direct drive.

[Bob_in_OKC]

http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/fallacies_list.html

It seems like if you understand logical fallacies so well, you'd reconsider what you've written thus far.

 

[Billfort]

Now let's not get personal here guys - we don't want this week's horse-beating thread to end up like all the others.

Bob does make a good point though, I think we can do without the kab sales-pitch links (even if they do represent some people's 'facts').

Now back to belt vs direct, specs vs listening, AK vs high-end, 1200 vs world, vintage vs new, tubes vs SS, vinyl vs CD...

 

[JohnVF]

The trap is mistaking a fact, for the truth. The truth can easily be mislead by leaving out the complete set of facts. Trust me- I work in advertising. A fact taken out of context is no more the truth than an experienced opinion is. Only when the complete picture is taken into account, is the truth revealed. As it is, limited specs on turntables outside of the whole picture (especially when given to you by a source with a financial interest in the matter, ahem) are simply part of the picture. Taking them as the truth without combining them with all available information, including direct observation of various implementations, is an easy way to think you're right about something that in reality, you are making little more than a blind guess at.

 

[illini]

...

I wasn't trying to sell anything or get personal...no affiliation with KAB.

 

[Multiplex]

You know, past a point, I think rumble specs come down to hair-splitting anyway. Even a mediocre turntable can perform well as long as it is well-isolated from vibration, and the bearing is in good condition, or lubricated well. No vinyl I've ever heard is perfectly dead quiet anyway. There is always some rumble, "whoosh," crackle, or tape hiss introduced at the time of cutting or pressing, anyway. I can clearly hear this on a friend's well cared for Empire 598, which claims 90db s/n, (they claimed that to be the lowest of any turntable measured as of that date.)

If dead quiet is what you are after, you may spend thousands, and still not acheive it... unless you are buying a CD player.

Wow and flutter specs do, however, mean something to me. I can hear very slight wavers in pitch, I think more so than most. Records pressed slightly off center make me grind my teeth, and usually others listening don't even seem to notice. I have several TT's, mostly Technics, and of them, my SL-Q3 is the only one that seems perfectly 100% rock solid in speed. My quartz SL-Q202 and SL-QX300 perform very well but just don't seem as solid, even though they have seen a lot less use, and are in better cosmetic condition. None of my belt drive TTs compare either, (though I admittedly don't own any real good ones.)

The most important specs are intangible... to be judged solely by your ears. Notice that there is no "musicality" spec, or "enjoyment" spec, or "love it so much it makes me gleefully giggle like a schoolgirl" spec. If those could be published, they would be of the most importance.

 

[illini]

they would be of the most importance.

And probably illegal :drool:

Seriously, nice post. I have a banjo lp manufactured with flutter built into the music from the source tape. :thumbsdn:

 

[Brett a]

There have been very few actual facts offered in this thread.

The problem with this discussion and all the dozens like it, is that people are all attached to their views and not really curious, just wanting to be right.

Mostly what I see whenever people offer links to "facts" is what I think is called purposed reasoning. That is, bending any and all material available to support their predetermined view.

If we all took the attitude of an honest "maybe", then it'd be a lot more fun we all might just learn something from each other.

But alas. These threads are all too common. At least they give us something to kill time with.

 

[ssmith3046]

I really don't pay attention to numbers anymore. Maybe in 1971 I did but these days it's not important. I use a Dual 701, Dual 1019, and AR-XA so I have a direct drive, idler, and belt drive and they all sound good to me.

 

[PickyEars81]

Trust me- I work in advertising.

The two seem mutually exclusive.

 

[Pio1980]

http://www.kabusa.com/myth4.htm

They publish weighted and unweighted.




The same method used to verify manufacturing equipment specs, the machines used to build heart valves and aircraft components.

I don't think absolute rim speed stability can be assured simply by assuming the master oscillator stability reflects it in actual use since correction pulsing would not necessarily show oscillator freq deviation where it may well be apparent at the platter with playback.

 

[cwall99]

The two seem mutually exclusive.

While I've read lots of John's posts and have no reason not to think other than very highly of his opinion, I gotta say, this was a pretty frickin' funny post.

 

[sKiZo]

No vinyl I've ever heard is perfectly dead quiet anyway. There is always some rumble, "whoosh," crackle, or tape hiss introduced at the time of cutting or pressing, anyway.

If dead quiet is what you are after, you may spend thousands, and still not achieve it... unless you are buying a CD player.

I'm coming darn close with the recent addition of a dbx SNR-1 to the system. Always thought those were more geared to tape, but come to find out they work well with vinyl too. Drops the noise floor down to almost nothing, and so far I haven't noticed any apparent loss of the good stuff. Just got done spinning Fleetwood Mac Rumours and Songbird especially benefits from the processing. Lots of real subtle stuff going on in there that was hard to pull out before. :thmbsp:

I CAN crank the SNR-1 up far enough to get rid of most pops and clicks, but that does begin to affect the music. Then again, I take good care of my records and there's not too many of those to deal with.

I can see the new toy coming in handy for cutting the vinyl to digital. I've got a turntable hooked to an outboard mixer outputting analog to an outboard sound interface to USB into the computer now. What's one more box, right?

 

[JohnVF]

The two seem mutually exclusive.

I'm glad you picked up on that

 

[melofelo]

[/QUAfter reading the tech specs of the Technics, I wondered if all those much more expensive belt driven turntables can really beat these numbers.OTE]

its a test you can do yourself to see how important these figures really are..

tap the plinth of a technics (or any other) direct drive turntable while its playing and then do the same with a relatively cheap belt driven philips ga-212.

Which one sounds louder through the speakers ?

the repeat the test by tapping the surface the turntable sits on...

then repeat the test by letting the cartridge play for a minute or two in the run out groove on both decks whilst listening for hum and mechanical vibration within the turntable itself...

another good test is to place a turntable on top of a speaker with a decent sized woofer ...crank the speakers with some bass heavy music and listen to see how effective your turntable is at filtering out external vibrations

 

[marcmorin]

[/QUAfter reading the tech specs of the Technics, I wondered if all those much more expensive belt driven turntables can really beat these numbers.OTE]

its a test you can do yourself to see how important these figures really are..

tap the plinth of a technics (or any other) direct drive turntable while its playing and then do the same with a relatively cheap belt driven philips ga-212.

Which one sounds louder through the speakers ?

the repeat the test by tapping the surface the turntable sits on...

then repeat the test by letting the cartridge play for a minute or two in the run out groove on both decks whilst listening for hum and mechanical vibration within the turntable itself...

another good test is to place a turntable on top of a speaker with a decent sized woofer ...crank the speakers with some bass heavy music and listen to see how effective your turntable is at filtering out external vibrations

:thmbsp: I can knock on my table while it is playing, and not a single bit finds the speakers........I give that demo all the time. God bless Ed Villchur.

 

[JimPA]

It's a Dirt Devil . The belt is on the side. It powers the brush roller The suitcase record players that were available were made in the 60's. To get to the belt requires taking the whole unit out of the box. My father wasn't very mechanical.

 

[Multiplex]

[/QUAfter reading the tech specs of the Technics, I wondered if all those much more expensive belt driven turntables can really beat these numbers.OTE]

its a test you can do yourself to see how important these figures really are..

tap the plinth of a technics (or any other) direct drive turntable while its playing and then do the same with a relatively cheap belt driven philips ga-212.

Which one sounds louder through the speakers ?

the repeat the test by tapping the surface the turntable sits on...

then repeat the test by letting the cartridge play for a minute or two in the run out groove on both decks whilst listening for hum and mechanical vibration within the turntable itself...

another good test is to place a turntable on top of a speaker with a decent sized woofer ...crank the speakers with some bass heavy music and listen to see how effective your turntable is at filtering out external vibrations

I know this is an audiophile sin punishable by death, but since I lack the rack space, my SL-Q3 has been being operated directly on top of one of my JBL L-71 Verona speakers, (3-way, with a 15" woofer,) while doing some experimentation with other TT's over the last couple of months. Only at the highest of ear-bleed volumes do I notice a little bloat, followed by a quickly-decaying trail of rumble after high level passages. I'm fairly impressed by it, actually.

I have a Philips GA-212 as well, and it has a great tone and low noise floor but I'm not thrilled with it's speed stability. I would imagine (hope) it's wow and flutter performance is supposed to be better than mine is delivering. When compared to my DD's, it's speed variance is definitely audible. Perhaps I need to go through it and clean some pots, maybe even consider a re-cap. But I digress...

The Philips' interconnect cables are too short to make it over to my speaker, so I can't compare. However, it seems far more sensitive to lateral shock, such as shutting a rack door, than my Technics decks.

 

[Dr Tinear]

After reading the tech specs of the Technics, I wondered if all those much more expensive belt driven turntables can really beat these numbers.

its a test you can do yourself to see how important these figures really are..

tap the plinth of a technics (or any other) direct drive turntable while its playing and then do the same with a relatively cheap belt driven philips ga-212.

Which one sounds louder through the speakers ?

the repeat the test by tapping the surface the turntable sits on...

then repeat the test by letting the cartridge play for a minute or two in the run out groove on both decks whilst listening for hum and mechanical vibration within the turntable itself...

another good test is to place a turntable on top of a speaker with a decent sized woofer ...crank the speakers with some bass heavy music and listen to see how effective your turntable is at filtering out external vibrations

Try the same test with a Rega or Pro-Ject belt-drive deck instead of a suspended turntable such as a Philips or an AR. You might be surprised at how well the environmental isolation of those old Technics decks compares with the performance of today's affordable belt-drives ... and how poorly both perform relative to a suspended subchassis design.

I bought a Technics SL-1700 suspended direct-drive turntable late last year in the hope that it would give me the best of both worlds -- the speed stability of a direct-drive and the isolation of a suspended belt-drive. If I can ever get the time free to install it in my system and give it an extended audition, I'll post my impressions of it. This is the first direct-drive turntable I've ever owned, though I've heard a number of them over the years, so I'm looking forward to the audition.

 

[JohnVF]

The Sony 2251 that I occasionally run is a sprung DD. It works quite well but my massive VPI Classic handles the affect of outside forces better. The Sony is a good turntable for die-hard fans of belt drive to hear.

 

[melofelo]

Try the same test with a Rega or Pro-Ject belt-drive deck instead of a suspended turntable such as a Philips or an AR.

Fully agree :yes:...the rega, however, uses a different design approach to a typical direct drive or 3 point suspended in how its plinth deals with vibration.
A rigid, non resonant shelf fixed to a masonry wall is worth considering.