15 years ago, I was fortunate enough to live in a region well-served by specialist audio retailers, where you could get hands-on demos of a variety of turntables. Technics hadn't yet re-entered the market, but, just off the top of my head, there was at least Pro-Ject, Music Hall, Thorens, Audio Technica, Denon, and Rega, as well as costlier models from VPI, Linn, SOTA, and Well Tempered. In fact, it was in 2011 that I wanted an automatic turntable and drove to a Denon dealer (admittedly 140 miles away) to see and hear the DP-300F, which I liked and purchased. Fixing old has never been a route I wanted to take.
Observations about the Turntable forum
- Thread starter Azimuth
- Start date
There are real options now, though my budget hasn't quite risen to that level yet. Still difficult justifying the cost when vintage offers do much for so much less. But I do imagine what a new high end modern table might be like...
It was the wave of vintage tables pouring out of closets 10-15 years ago that made the learning accessible for me. It rained vintage cartridges and drawers of styli were selling for dollars. Couldn't swing a cat without hitting a minislim. That wave has dried up, and I think it's made it harder for new folks to cut their teeth.
One of the problems with me and vintage is a lack of knowledge and skill on my part. I once bought a Dual 1218 to gain 78 rpm ability when my other turntable was an LP12, but the Dual had issues I couldn't solve and that local techs weren't interested in attempting. It was usable, but a lot of the features no longer worked properly. I solved the issue with a new Stanton STR8-80X from Guitar Center, who let me bring in my own headshell, cartridge, headphone amp and headphones to try it out with. I liked how it sounded, and everything worked!
I'm old enough to have drooled over gear in HiFi House and Radio Shack as a broke teenager in the 70s. I came back to the hobby in 2010 by dragging my 1700MK2 out of storage. It needed some work plus a stylus for the Signet AM20S, so I called Hi-Fi house which still existed, and they said to try AK and a few online retailers like Turntabletneedles. That led me down a rabbit hole, and I also met the local crew on AK where I could listen to great gear. TTs were plentiful on Craigslist as were used records for cheap.
Now go into any college town and there are multiple record shops full of kids. There are still some decent record dealers out there with used stuff too. Everyone thought it would be a digital world by now but vinyl and tubes are still everywhere and you can go vintage, new, or DIY, so it's the best of all worlds IMO.
Now go into any college town and there are multiple record shops full of kids. There are still some decent record dealers out there with used stuff too. Everyone thought it would be a digital world by now but vinyl and tubes are still everywhere and you can go vintage, new, or DIY, so it's the best of all worlds IMO.
There are still those who are genuine, those who are opinionated (for better or worse), and those who post long serpentine replies.
After all the revisions to my setups and living through the results — I can better filter out useful, good posts and replies from the bad ones.
That comes with age and experience.
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@Azimuth, Thanks for starting this thread.
We really can't generalize, in this "modern" world. There are over 370,000 members in AK, worldwide.
Granted, most folks seem to still believe that "new is better," but there are still audio devotees of all ages.
Compare this "hobby" to the automobile enthusiasts. How many "newer" car buyers fix there own cars ? Vintage autos are rarely seen on the road, here in the suburban northeast. Yet, there are still collectors and enthusiasts attending vintage car shows, of all ages.
So, yes, our "sound hounds" are still there, in the background. Out of 370K members, many only lurk, but they still read.
Recently, AK requested that we should upload more "service lit and documents" to the AK database. Thus, it is up to all of us to consider helping AK expand its lit collection.
Likewise, for all the lurkers, consider posting some audio stories or helping someone with their audio adventure questions.
With all the "sections" within AK, surely we all fit right in, here, from a novice to a technician...
We really can't generalize, in this "modern" world. There are over 370,000 members in AK, worldwide.
Granted, most folks seem to still believe that "new is better," but there are still audio devotees of all ages.
Compare this "hobby" to the automobile enthusiasts. How many "newer" car buyers fix there own cars ? Vintage autos are rarely seen on the road, here in the suburban northeast. Yet, there are still collectors and enthusiasts attending vintage car shows, of all ages.
So, yes, our "sound hounds" are still there, in the background. Out of 370K members, many only lurk, but they still read.
Recently, AK requested that we should upload more "service lit and documents" to the AK database. Thus, it is up to all of us to consider helping AK expand its lit collection.
Likewise, for all the lurkers, consider posting some audio stories or helping someone with their audio adventure questions.
With all the "sections" within AK, surely we all fit right in, here, from a novice to a technician...
mr_petit
High on Vinyl
Really?
I have a feeling that with turntables the opposite is true and I also have a feeling that most people (maybe the majority) think that.
Compared to say....late 70's/early 80's, most of today's turntables are childishly simple.
Most of them are of a very simple belt drive and a manual arm. Expensive turntables (as in +$5k and often +$10k) mostly seem to warrant their price through an abundance of heavy and luxurious materials, and not through breakthroughs in new and advanced techniques, like so many manufacturers did in the 70's and early 80's
There are no (semi)automatics available to speak of, let alone electromagnetically dampened tonearms or automated systems to center records. Both trying to counter factual drawbacks of vinyl records through applied technology.
Even vacuumplatters aren't as common as in the late 70's/early 80's (now there is only Sota ($10k or so), and $20k+ stuff like Techdas), whereas in the 80's Micro seiki, Luxman and audio technica had way more affordable (and thus more common) systems
The only real 'new is better' brand I can think of is Reed, that has actually made innovations by designing azimuth on the fly and a true pivoted tangential tonearm (both very expensive though).
And Audio Technica by designing a cartridge that has the coil on the front of the cantilever and a cartridge that has a cantilever/tip (ML) assembly out of 1 solid piece of diamond (using either pvd or cvd as a process and not cheap though....$10k)
Are there any current quartz-locked, phase-locked-loop, belt-driven turntables?
Thanks!
mr_petit
High on Vinyl
Not that I know of, except for (I think) the Reed Muse 3C (yes, again Reed)
Lots of quartz driven belt drive motors of course (and I guess there could by a pll on the motor itself), but a real PLL on the platter like you have on DD's I don't think so (other than the one I mentioned).
But I don't know if that existed back in the day though.
That said, I'm not really familiar with turntables that cost $20k and up (that Reed Muse 3c is already 20k for just the drive, but let alone 100k and up, and there are quite a few of them too of course but I don't really count exotics like those in a discussion between what was and what is)
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I'm thinking there may be an issue with micro-adjusting the motor's speed in real time — and a delay in its effect on the platter — when there is an elastic belt in between the two.
This is just me throwing spit wads against the wall. As far as I know, there is no hard core data.
Thanks for the reply!
mr_petit
High on Vinyl
A heavy enough platter should filter out micro adjustments on the motor I imagine. Of course you don't want the motor to be adjusting too much. If a hysteresis starts between plater and motor pully due to too much adjustments and elasticity of the belt, it'll be chaotic.
Measuring rpm on the platter is more useful to reach optimum rpm and adjust for belt slippeage/non optimal belt thickness I think.
Measuring rpm on the platter is more useful to reach optimum rpm and adjust for belt slippeage/non optimal belt thickness I think.
penmarker
Active Member
Orbray sells one piece diamond cantilever+stylus with Shibata profile. they're expensive though, the two piece option is already $2,000. not sure what the one piece option costs.
mr_petit
High on Vinyl
Orbray also makes that AT solid stylus/tip so that makes sense. Afaik Orbray makes ALL the AT square shank nude stylus tips.
That said I haven't seen another cartridge manufacturer actually making a cartridge with that one piece diamond cantilever/tip assembly. (btw I don't see any of this on their site though, you have a link to that shibata solid assembly?)
The only other one cartridge in history afaik that had such a (similar) setup was the sony XL-88D in the 80's.
That particular cartridge had, by the looks of it's stylus/tip assembly an assembly that was ground from a solid diamond, so no VD. It looks awesome.
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avantbored
Active Member
I first came here, with this moniker, to supposedly diagnose what I thought was a problem with my first turntable, a PL12D that has a suspended sub-chassis. The vibrations I noticed during playback were all because of beginner's ignorance and naivete. The users responding to my thread were generous with their time. Because my inquiry was welcomed with respect and patience, I kept coming back, reading threads about all this gear I knew nothing about, but really fascinated me.
I think this is exemplary of the type of platform we're on here -- an early mainstream Internet space that really tried to model conversation and exchange at a time when monetization practices were in their infancy. I love the involved discussions here. It reminds me that an internet that minimizes outrage and prioritizes exchange is still viable.
As perhaps a "middle-aged millennial," I learned the Internet through this way, then grew up on the kind of Internet we all know now: Instagram, Facebook, etc.
I can't say whether or not more people from a forum such as AudioKarma have found more of their time on FB groups, since I haven't collected that data. But I have noticed the quality of dialogue there is completely different than what you get here at AK. Often, I'm citing AK threads in my replies to FB posts, which are largely about whether or not someone ought to remove the DBSG from their AU517, or find documentation about other hobbyist restoration efforts. I can't solder for the life of me, but I have a learned so much about the basics of old componentry from this forum. I have always loved vintage stuff. I'm SO grateful for AK!
^ This is an interesting take when we consider how, among a certain group of new audio enthusiasts -- of which I count myself -- are into the really canonical gear like high-efficiency speakers (I'm thinking OJAS and other horn-first brands that are not Klipsch and live mostly on Instagram). On the one hand, you could argue that OJAS has made a really niche sub-group of vintage hifi enthusiasts (high-efficiency, flea watt amps) accessible to the very type of new consumer @Azimuth describes above (buy new, don't delve deep.) The OJAS speakers are indeed presented more as an entry-level product for someone with a thick wallet. On the other hand, vintage audio has never been more popular among that very group -- but would it be in the same way that AKers practice their love for vintage audio?
When I've spoken with those in my peer group, they want a vintage stereo set up. But housing limitations and barrier to entry prevent them from it. Unless they connect with someone who makes it seem premium and effortless. For my part, I don't mind the effort; part of me really loves the search.
To @Azimuth's point: Are they, like me, here? My guess is they are not here learning about Fisher 800Cs or Sansui AU-8500s, developing a kind of sense for what might be interesting for them. I think a lot of that education is coming from Instagram and YouTube. So many people come to mind -- budget_audiophiler, SkyLab Audio, etc. etc. If you are show yourself and say hi. I think AudioKarma has got to be one of the last great places on the Internet.
penmarker
Active Member
Its not online, they sent me a pdf brochure after contacting them through the form in their website. If i can find the pdf i'll pm it to you. its a few years old so not sure whats still supported and whats legacy/obsolete.
Kuzma does, topping it with a sapphire body and a price to match: CAR-70
Though calling them a cartridge manufacturer might not be totally correct.
mr_petit
High on Vinyl
Ah yes, that's the same cantilever assembly from Orbray.
Seeing the price....no wonder I didn't knew that one existed, not in my scope of interest anymore. I'm sure more will follow. But that AT 60 year anniversary cartridge was afaik the first one with it. (back in '22) That $10k AT charges now suddenly seems like a bargain...Can't believe I'm saying that
BTW, AT (and probably thus Orbray) now has a new variant with a alternate Shibata grinding on diamond AT-MCD1. So that tip as different specs compared to most other shibata's interestingly.
Still, all this is imho not really 'new is better'.
I'm missing a turntable that is semi automatic or full automatic, has a system to center the grooves on a record (à la Nakamichi had), as this dictates by far more the wow on a record than it's drive), has a vacuum platter (warps are one of the most audible distortions a record can have), has an arm (automatic arm) that has no tracking error (so linear or pivoting tangential), VTA control of at least +/-2 deg with readable degree or heigth marker, has a dampening system (10hz resonance), has a detachable headshell with a connection system that is rigid and precise fit every time (so that re-adjusting azimith isn't necessairy when swapping cartridges like the sme connector has as a flaw) and has azimuth adjustment in said headshell with a readable degree marker.
That would solve every theoretical/fundamental deviation paramenter vinyl playback could have, and you could then also make a verifyable setup sheet when swapping a cartridge, so that you get the same repeatable quality every time.
No such turntable has ever existed. All these functions have existed (more or less, a vernier scale/nonius on azimuth maybe not) on various turntables and arms, but never all in one or possible to combine.
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When I was a teenager in the 70’ it was all about the music/records, nobody cared about the cartridge or turntable. The thing that impressed people was the volum of the speakers. I had a AT95E and was happy with than on the family’s simple Garrard. I wish I knew then what I know now. And I would have bought more turntable and gear in the 90s. Played CDs from 94 and reinstalled vinyl and all my record s early 2000, when I started with tubes, needed a source for my tube riaa. But thanks to the forums I could really learn to understand vinyl from 2020, when my wife demanded that I took the Michell Gyro SE up from the cellar. The old Hifi magazines like Audio on worldradiohistory.com was and is a great source for knowledge
I am rather unimpressed by current turntable standards. A heavy platter and a belt and no suspension/isolation is a joke, compared to the DDs with electronic arms like Sony,Denon, JVC. I wish those TT was the current standard to improve upon/build on. Reed are good I agree , both arms and TT are innovative
I am rather unimpressed by current turntable standards. A heavy platter and a belt and no suspension/isolation is a joke, compared to the DDs with electronic arms like Sony,Denon, JVC. I wish those TT was the current standard to improve upon/build on. Reed are good I agree , both arms and TT are innovative
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Another poster responded, too, on your comment about buyers of new turntables, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean by not wanting to delve any deeper. Are you saying that these people don't to take the time to read reviews or visit shops for a hands-on demonstration, that they just buy the first option that comes to their attention?
Or a third possibility, that they don't know any different. The average person is only exposed to crosley and maybe a budget AT, turntables aren't something to stumble across in the mall anymore. They see records at Walmart, they want a table. The new, inexpensive, accessible options don't require anything else to play a record, why look any farther? Why seek something you don't know exists?