How expensive are pure platinum wires? Aren't these used in severe environments and long-term medical implants?
Isn't gold a better conductor over time? If you are going that route.
Ok, how bad really are magnetic materials in binding posts?
- Thread starter dogwan
- Start date
Isn't gold a better conductor over time? If you are going that route.
Ordin Aryguy
Active Member
Magnetic (ferrous) materials in binding post make ZERO difference to sound quality. Zero.
Those materials have slightly higher resistance than better conductors, like copper, if the two compared materials are the exact same size. Given the robust size of binding posts, this difference is immaterial (no pun intended.)
Ferrous materials that are next to wires carrying electrical current do matter. In that circumstance an electromagnetic coupling occurs which will induce currents in the adjacent magnetic material. As energy can neither be created nor destroyed, the energy transferred to the ferrous material is donated by the adjacent conductor. If that conductor is your speaker wire then it's lost energy.
This is a highly simplified explanation as there are other factors, such as the frequency dependent losses, etc.
For anything like steel binding posts that are only resistive in nature, those losses are VERY easily overcome with a teeny tiny twist of the volume knob.
Those materials have slightly higher resistance than better conductors, like copper, if the two compared materials are the exact same size. Given the robust size of binding posts, this difference is immaterial (no pun intended.)
Ferrous materials that are next to wires carrying electrical current do matter. In that circumstance an electromagnetic coupling occurs which will induce currents in the adjacent magnetic material. As energy can neither be created nor destroyed, the energy transferred to the ferrous material is donated by the adjacent conductor. If that conductor is your speaker wire then it's lost energy.
This is a highly simplified explanation as there are other factors, such as the frequency dependent losses, etc.
For anything like steel binding posts that are only resistive in nature, those losses are VERY easily overcome with a teeny tiny twist of the volume knob.
If you think about it, I'll bet most speaker posts on the drivers are plain old steel. The wires within the speaker cabinet are also bathed in permanent magnet fields, as well as electromagnetic ones from the chokes in the crossovers.
Those fields should overwhelm the material effect of the external speaker posts.
Last edited:
I have known a few guys who have done that. Soldered the whole system together from preamp to amp to speakers. A bit of a PITA though if you have to swap out a component.There is a mil spec wire that is silver coated copper. It’s pretty good and is very reasonably priced compared to most audiophool wire.
It’s a variant of M22759 I believe.
I know a guy who doesn’t use any binding posts and swears by it. He solders everything together. Including bypassing the terminals on the drivers. He solders right to the tinsel wires.
I also think he’s a little crazy
If you think about it, I'll bet most speaker posts on the drivers are plain old steel. The wires within the speaker cabinet are also bathed in permanent magnet fields, as well as electromagnetic ones from the chokes in the crossovers.
Those fields should overwhelm the material effect of the external speaker posts.
you're right. Those fields from the inductors are pretty large.
a cheap easy mod for many speakers is just increasing the distance between the inductors to reduce crosstalk. On inexpensive speakers they are all sandwiched together on a PCB.
Lou G
Super Member
This statement is incorrect.
Silver does not form an oxide under ambient conditions. In order to from silver oxide (Ag2O), high temperature or specific chemistry is required and would typically not occur on audio cables. Even if Ag2O were present, it is not a conductor but a p-type semiconductor with a band gap of about 1.2 eV.
The typical tarnish that is observed on silver is silver sulfide (Ag2S) which is also a semiconductor with a band gap of about 1.1 eV. So the conductivity is significantly reduced for both the oxide and the sulfide of silver compared to pure silver.
What is the oxide that occurs on Grandma's silverware? I remember cleaning it every year.
Lou G
Super Member
The typical tarnish on silverware is silver sulfide (Ag2S)
Do ferrous metals make a measurable difference in the audio path? Yes
What is up for debate is if this difference is audible.
I know it is ASR, but there is a pretty good discussion on the matter here:
www.audiosciencereview.com
If you chase the links, you will encounter at least one instance where a steel binding post with clip on connector did indeed produce measurable increased distortion.
As with many other things, probably not an issue for 99.5% of end users, but for those chasing that last .5% (and where the $$ debate always begins), I am sure it matters.
What is up for debate is if this difference is audible.
I know it is ASR, but there is a pretty good discussion on the matter here:
Ferromagnetic materials in audio connectors
Read the post and maybe some around it. It was a materials issue, not the board. Don't have the patience to read all comments. When will have time and the gear hopefully then I will try to measure the effect of steel as conductor. Unfortunately I have no AP analyzer, so I will try it with my...
www.audiosciencereview.com
If you chase the links, you will encounter at least one instance where a steel binding post with clip on connector did indeed produce measurable increased distortion.
As with many other things, probably not an issue for 99.5% of end users, but for those chasing that last .5% (and where the $$ debate always begins), I am sure it matters.
knotscott
Super Member
Pure copper binding posts are a step in the right direction vs typical plated steel and other various alloys that don't conduct as well, and/or cause other disruptions in the signal path. It's a system...a chain of events where the weakest link is the most audible, and at some level everything, (or at least lots of things) matter, and can be audible. How big of a step it is depends a lot on the level of the system, and how many other steps have been taken in that direction. There are multiple points within a system that can veil the signal, and mask improvements besides just the level of the components themselves....the room, setup, component and vibration isolation, wires/cables, connectors, all crossover parts, baffle reflections, etc. IMO, it's a step worth taking, but there are many others things may still need to be addressed. The end result often boils down to how many stones get left unturned.
I guess eliminating all connections and soldering everything is the only way to get these speaker posts, RCA connections, internal amplifier edge connectors, DIN connections, turntable connections, etc., out of the loop. It would make fixing things a bit more difficult. However, on a positive note, this would reduce constant user "upgrade-itis."
knotscott
Super Member
gkimeng
Forum Mod, ClassicSpeakerPages.net
IMO, any conductivity issues pale in comparison to the negative impact of a softer metal failure that requires opening up the cabinet to repair. If you replace steel with something else, make sure their design enables replacement of the entire subassembly from the outside.
But that seems to be the way to eliminate all these oxidation and variable connectivity issues. Sealing all the solder points in clear epoxy would be even better.For sure...but dang that's a big downside! What's an old guy to putter on then?!
Copper has much less tensile strength than steel. It would be interesting to see how a copper post looks and tests after 10 years versus a steel post.
Last edited:
Doesn't solder affect the conductivity?
Ha, it appears I stand corrected.
"There is a widespread misconception that silver oxidizes. This is incorrect. So silver does not oxidize at room temperatures. There also is an equally big misconception that silver oxide is a good conductor, thus tarnished silver connectors do not make a big difference. It is true that silver oxide is conductive, but the tarnish that easily develops on silver plated connectors is not silver oxide, because silver does not oxidize. Instead it is silver sulfide, brown to very dark brown (as opposed to pure black for silver oxide). Silver sulfide is not a conductor, but a semiconductor. Thus the idea that the silver tarnish does not affect the connection is a bad myth."
Doesn't the voice coil operate in a very strong magnetic field? Beats me why whatever inductance/reactance, or whatever that would be created in the half inch or two of conduction in steel connectors would be even close to the the effect of the magnetic field on the bazillion wires of the voice coil. And yes, I know that the voice coil wires may not be ferrous, but they are diamagetic or paramagnetic, copper and aluminum being the obvious possibilities. So there is interaction with the magnetic field - not much, but when we are getting the heebie jeebies about a binding post, let's go whole hog.
Last edited:
audiotemp
Super Member
That's not really a correction so much as a counter myth.
It's true that silver sulfide tarnish is often/usually more prevalent than silver oxide tarnish but saying that silver oxide doesn't form at all at room temperature is overstating the case.
Also, statements made about semiconductors and bandgaps are also largely misplaced here because "the bandgap" does a lot of funny things in a thin film or at the interface with another material---enough that the bulk material bandgap doesn't, by itself, explain much of anything at the surface.