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Op Amp Sound Improvements Challenge

HypnoToad

RIP Ms Puss Puss
Subscriber
Those little black bricks, Op Amps are a mystery, they are a self contained amplifier, very easy to work with and very easy to swap out. There are the common "jelly bean" variety like the NE3552 and the boutique types like the OPA627 etc.

Seems easy enough to swap out a cheap type and put in a more expensive one and get much better sound, right, well the answer is yes and no. Sure better op amps sound better, but there is a "but" and it's if they are used in the right way.

But swapping out op amps can be fun and rewarding as long as they are stable, instability such as oscillation can have a huge detrimental effect on their performance. I remember when someone complained that they swapped out an OPA2134 for a pair of LME49990's on an adapter and complained they got really hot, I suggested that they add a 0.1uf ceramic capacitor across the V+ & V- supply pins and they reported they no longer got hot. So I guessed with some power supply bypassing the oscillations caused by instability stopped.

But sometimes it's not so obvious that the op amp is not stable, they seem to sound okay and don't get hot, so without a scope, distortion analyzer etc you can't really tell.

I was reading a discussion on supply bypassing across the power rails, and it was suggested that most op amps particularly boutique ones like the AD797, LME49990, LME49720 can benefit "sound" wise from adding a small electrolytic 4.7uf / 10uf and a small film cap 0.1uf. I actually found that this was suggested by the manufacturer of high speed op amps for stability purposes.

Hmmm, this was like a red rag to a bull, pulling the AD797's & LME49990's from my phono stage, I thought why not give it a try. It already has 0.1uf and 100uf caps on the supply rails but what about this notion that you can improve the sound by having caps across the rails?

I had some 10uf 35v Nichicon electrolytics and some 0.1uf Pet film caps in stock so why not, since the op amps were all SOIC's on adapters I simply soldered a 10uf and 0.1uf across the supply pins of the adapters, I had listened to Dire Straights Brothers in Arms earlier and wondered if there would be an audible difference good for bad.

Was I imagining it or was the background quieter, the separation better, the bass more defined, voices a lot cleaner and overall a smoother performance? Is it just the placebo effect, I was expecting either no or little difference but not what I found.

So here is a challenge for those people who love mess with things, and have a DIY phono stage, headphone amp, pre amp etc, I take no responsibility though if you damage anything, only those who are competent at soldering and want to take the risk need try it. And please do not try this on your new expensive piece of equipment where you will instantly void the warranty.

But if you have some 4.7uf - 10uf (No higher than 10uf, bigger is not better in this regard), and some 0.1uf film or even ceramics to try, give it a go and report back as to what you find. It's suggested that the better the caps the cleaner the sound, so Elna Silmic II's were found to be the best on another forum. But I just used the standard Nichicon's I had on hand, I will definitely try the Silmic's once I get some.

You need to know if you have dual or single op amps to work out the supply pins, for dual op amps the supply pins are 4 for - and 8 for + seen here, the little crater on the op amp is near pin 1.

Dual circuit op amps, OPA2134, LM4562, LME49720 etc:


images


For single op amps the supply pins are 4 for - and 7 for + seen here, the little crater on the op amp is near pin 1 .

Single circuit op amp, AD797, LME49990, LME49710, OPA627 etc:

opamp-pinout-single.png


Don't forget if you are using polarized caps the usual convention applies, positive to positive and negative to negative.

The other consideration is the voltage rating of the caps, if your op amps are running at 12v + & - or 15v + & -, then you need to have 35v or higher caps, if you have over 15v + & - then you need to use 50v, you add both positive and negative voltages together to work out your cap rating.

So in summary I am not saying this will make a huge difference, as I am still skeptical of what I heard, but on face value it "seemed" to work for me, so I value others findings, good or bad.

Remember do this at your own risk, and past performance is not a guarantee of future performance.
 
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Installing bypass caps on the power supply rails is good practice but it is not a cure for instability. If the opamp is used as a unity gain amp in the circuit you must use an opamp that is unity gain stable. It will say that in the data sheet. Also some opamps become unstable into a capacitive load, like shielded cables. You can isolate the opamp from a capacitive load by adding a resistor in series with the output. Sometimes as low as 100 Ohms will do it, sometimes you have to go with 1K. This is also usually mentioned in the data sheet. You also have to look at what the power supply rail voltages are in the circuit and make sure it doesn't exceed the absolute maximum values given in the data sheet.
I have been using LM4562NA/NOPB lately, and I am very pleased with the result. It is good for up to +/- 18V. If you have higher rails you have to look for another opamp. If you go to the TI website and search for opamps for audio use, you will find some high quality opamps.
 
Seems easy enough to swap out a cheap type and put in a better more expensive one and get much better sound, right, well the answer is yes... and no. Sure better op amps sound better, but there is a "but" and it's if they are used in the right way.

OK before others get there. YES this is going to sound better, you put in better more expensive...

but on a serious note. Thanks for this. I have upgraded a couple units with the 2134 one with the 4562 and extra caps just sitting there. Might be a project in the near future.
 
Installing bypass caps on the power supply rails is good practice but it is not a cure for instability.

We are not only talking about instability, poor wording on my account, but the supposed improvement in sound quality by adding caps across the supply rails. For what reason isn't exactly clear but needs further investigation.

OK before others get there. YES this is going to sound better, you put in better more expensive...

Thanks, fixed it.

The reason for adding smaller caps across the larger electrolytic caps on the supply is to provide lower impedance at higher frequencies.

Thanks for the explanation.
 
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We are not only talking about instability, poor wording on my account, but the supposed improvement in sound quality by adding caps across the supply rails. For what reason isn't exactly clear but needs further investigation.



Thanks, fixed it.
The reason for adding smaller caps across the larger electrolytic caps on the supply is to provide lower impedance at higher frequencies.
 
Has anybody toyed with the discreet component op amps (sparkos, or Burson).?
Expensive devices that, after spending all that money, anyone would say that it sounds better. But having the opamp integrated on a single piece of silicon is an advantage, not a weakness, regardless of those who might say otherwise. In a head-to-head test, I'd doubt that these discrete devices could approach the performance of even a run-of-the-mill cheapo opamp like a TL072 or a 5532.

But if it makes someone happy to swap out a common opamp for something much more expensive, such as a Burson, mo power to ya.
 
Ahem ... presenting for your edification and pleasure tonite, (drumroll please) the Burson v5 ...

burson-v5-installed.jpg


Thankyewverymuch! <G>

The red tower ... That's in my Maverick D1+. I also upgraded the headphone amp and I/V conversion with OPA627's mounted on Browndog adapters. You can see one of those peeking out next to the Burson v5.

Let's not forget the other end of the cable ... I upgraded the HTPC with a Paul Pang card.

paul-pang-usb.jpg


That has it's own power supply (the card itself will draw 1 amp!) and creates it's own "audiophile grade" USB channel. Only thing plugged into that is the DAC and ADC so it's fully isolated.

Not to forgot the cable itself. That's a Pangea 4% silver, which is a pretty decent step up from the run of the mill fare.

These changes had some real serious impact on what I'm hearing - night and day at least - and it takes a good 200 hours to get it all to break in properly. About halfway there and still getting an occasional wOw moment when something else clicks in yet another step towards audio nirvana! Me like!!
 
These changes had some real serious impact on what I'm hearing - night and day at least - and it takes a good 200 hours to get it all to break in properly. About halfway there and still getting an occasional wOw moment when something else clicks in yet another step towards audio nirvana! Me like!!
If you're happy, that's all that matters.
 
My only comment vis a vis these boutique opamps is this: Who do you think is going to make a better performing opamp, TI with millions of dollars and a staff of experienced engineers designing a purpose built for high end audio opamp, or some guy in his garage? My money's on TI. Those things are pretty, but I'm sceptical.
 
That sort of reasoning has convinced me that I should buy my stereo at Walmart!
I've seen the light!!

Anyway ... I've seen significant improvements in detail here. I've certainly spent more for less ...
 
Interesting thread. I'm using a $20 board kit chip line stage from the e-place as a front end for a Marantz 8 setup right now. Simple sounds incredibly good, I could flip some chips thru it but I'm too involved with what it's doing right.
 
I wasn't looking to stir the pot. More to see if anyone has done subjective testing.
With test equipment not ears (looking for facts not opinions). I do appreciate the feedback and i respect what's been said. Its just that we've seen these things go off the rails quick.:hug:
 
I'm kicking myself for ever upgrading from my trusty old Yorx ... good enough is good enough ... ;-}

All a herd of engineers and rooms full of test equipment will determine is a set of numbers that may ... or may not ... make any difference in whether some garage band tech shop from down under has managed to capture magic that translates into improved SONIC performance and satisfaction.

miracle.gif


Imagine if David Hafler or Bob Carver had decided to just wait for the white rooms to puke up whatever would keep the people satisfied at the lowest price point ...

I suppose this DOES constitute one of those, which tube, cable, table, whatever kinda thangs, so hey ... I've said my piece ... I'll be sitting back, deluding myself with the psychoacoustic bullcrap the op amp swapping can provide. Yall go on about it ...
:rockon:
 
Getting back on track, if anyone does add the suggested 4.7uf - 10uf electrolytic and 0.1uf film cap across the supply rails/pins of their op amps please report back if there is a difference good for bad in the sound.
 
There's a track? <G>

Part of the plan here after I get a chance to get used to what I'm currently hearing. I expect it'd be more along the lines of subtle, similar to what you might here when adding bypasses to DIPs and most any electrolytic in the signal chain. I also got some high end caps for the primary filters.

Also considering upgrading the regulators - that's supposed to smooth things out a bit as well. Burson and Sparkos both offer discrete versions of the more common varieties in whatever voltages you need.
 
Thinking about it, this could be an improvement for all op amps, CD player output stages etc, it certainly can't hurt having the recommended rail bypassing.

I bet just using two caps across the supply rails as suggested would give the Burson's a run for their money, YMMV.
 
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