Ortofon MC-20

[Blue Shadow]

Listening to a cartridge if it has both channels, tracks properly and doesn't have much distortion it is fine. Wear can be heard as bad sibilance, the bad sss,sss sounds and other mistracking sounds. But I haven't used worn out cartridges so not real sure how to hear the difference.

 

[rothwellaudio]

Yes, I have been using the NAD that way and the volume is extremely low. However, it does work and sounds very good. I would like to find the right equipment to use so I can do everything the proper way. If it does sound good but lower volume, does that mean my cartridge is good and and working as it should? Anything to look out for when listening? Thank you

As Blue Shadow pointed out earlier in the thread, the MC20 isn't just a low output mc, it's a very low output mc - 10 to 20dB lower than many modern LOMCs. That's why it sounds quiet. If you have to turn up the volume a lot more than you would do for other sources, it isn't really a major problem. Maybe just enjoy it as it is with the NAD for now while you look for the Ortofon SUT or headamp.

 

[Blue Shadow]

@rothwellaudio the FR FRT-3 and others have a low impedance, 10Ω input which they say has 31dB gain. The MCA-76 head amp has 34dB. I'm thinking the Fidelity Research might be just enough except for quiet parts of records folks want to play really loud.

This FR also has a 30Ω input with 26dB gain which would be better for the 0.2mV cartridges I'm guessing but wholly adequate for the other LOMC in the 0.2-0.8mV range. Is that correct. If so, the FRT might be a better acquisition since it is more versatile and when the MC 20 wears out one can move on to a higher output LOMC.

 

[twiiii]

I had a MC 20 way back when and a MC 30 , too they were available new that I used with a Ortofon Step up transformer driving my C-29. I had to track a little high using a SME Mk II arm and then later a Radco Sl-8E. The cartridge sounded better that way. All Ortofon suspensions dry out and fail with age, so I would move on. I did. My favorite ortofons was the the SL-15 MKII, but like I say they all deteriorate. A friend just bought an Ortofon MM Bronze and it does really well. It doesn't match my Dynavector 10X5 ot 20 X or 20 X 2. But it tracks very well and has low distortion. But groove noise is higher and the bass response is thin compared to my Dynavector 20 series. Its taken me years to find a cartridge that had the sound of the SL 15 II and be able to track almost anything that the 15 couldn't. So I am happy. .

 

[toby7362]

@twiiii thank you for the info. Since you had the Mc-20, you know the sound. I really like the sound. If I’m going to put the money out, I would rather try to get a new cart that has a normal output that could be used with a regular phono jack or my NAD preamp.
Are you aware of any cart that has the same sound qualities or something near? I like the warmness of the cart.
I looked up your cart but cannot get anywhere near that price point. That thing probably sounds amazing.
Thank you for your thoughts or if anyone else has an idea for a newer cartridge, I’d appreciate it.

 

[Blue Shadow]

I would rather try to get a new cart that has a normal output that could be used with a regular phono jack or my NAD preamp.

You want a MC since many like the sound of them and it seems you do to. Higher output cartridges even the top Ortofon 2M Bronze and Black don't seem to have the magic of nice MC cartridges.

 

[twiiii]

I have never heard a MM cartridge that had the sound of the SL-15 MK II. The MC is a little brighter for sure. Or maybe should say it was also slightly more forward. I stopped shoping when I found Dynavector so I guess I am the last guy to ask which other brand might work for you. I know none of the Stantons, Shures or Audio Technika, Pickerings, Empires from long ago, or Grados ever did. Some of the other moving coils would but are out of your budget for now. You might find a HOutput MC Ortofon that would work on some ones back shelf. They were retired a few years ago.

 

[toby7362]

@rothwellaudio you mentioned earlier that the MC-20 is a very low output MC.
Since I have the NAD PP2e, why doesn’t that give me enough output. Upon reading the output db’s of the MC output of the NAD, it seems that it should give me enough output.
Can you help me decipher the specific information I need to know to understand why it’s not performing the way it should. Because the NAD has a MC input and Output, shouldn’t it produce enough volume/output?
If not, what specific number do I need to be aware of on a spec sheet when searching for another SUT or Preamp?
Thank you so much.

 

[rothwellaudio]

I have the NAD PP2e, why doesn’t that give me enough output. Upon reading the output db’s of the MC output of the NAD, it seems that it should give me enough output.

Many modern LOMC cartridges have outputs around 0.5mV. The NAD's gain is 60dB, which is fine for those cartridges. Actually, NAD's own specs say the input sensitivity is 0.3mV for 200mV output.
The MC20's output is much lower - it's only 0.07mV. That's 17dB below 0.5mV and 13dB below 0.3mV, so whichever way you look at it the NAD doesn't have sufficient gain for the MC20.

Because the NAD has a MC input and Output, shouldn’t it produce enough volume/output?

No.

what specific number do I need to be aware of on a spec sheet when searching for another SUT or Preamp?

You need a total gain of about 75dB. If you're going to use a SUT I'd recommend about 35dB gain from the SUT and 40dB from the phonostage. If the only SUT you can find has lower gain, say 26dB (ie a turns ratio of 1:20), you could make up the rest of the gain in the phonostage if it has adjustable gain. 26dB from the SUT and 49dB from the phonostage would give you a total of 75dB.

 

[Blue Shadow]

Yes, the MC20 is a VLOMC. Most MC cartridges are LOMC.
70µV vs at least 200µV to the 500µV that rothwell says is common.

I use a 70dB gain phono amp to go to line level with my MC20 and it works fine. So his number of 75dB gain is also good.

Tell us all the gear you have that is an amp of some kind maybe we can put something together.

preamps, phono amps, integrated amps, receivers.

 

[toby7362]

Excellent information. Exactly what I was looking for.
So, I plug the NAD right into a line input right now and volume is low. If I plug into phono input from NAD, I get an overly sensitive cartridge...too much gain.
I understand adding up to get to the 75db. So can I assume my phono input plus the NAD is just way too much gain?
If so, is it possible to use the MM inputs from NAD with phono inputs on receiver to make up the 75?
Is there a standard db output for phono jacks on receiver? If so, what is that amount? Is it 40db?

 

[Blue Shadow]

your phono input with RIAA equalization plus the NAD with RIAA equalization is jus wrong. Too much EQ and can not be corrected with tone controls. So the NAD into phono will not work no matter which input you use.

still looking for a list of gear

 

[toby7362]

@Blue Shadow
Not great gear except TT and this cartridge that came with it.
Yamaha Ypd71 with MC-20
Fisher receiver RS1035
Nad PP2e
Kenwood kL-888d’s

 

[Blue Shadow]

More than adequate gear. But not something that will allow the use of the MC 20 at proper volumes without more amplification.
Got any buddy with an extra chunk of gear? Want to buy an SUT to use with the MC-20 into an MM phono input, either the RS or the NAD?

Easy enough to sell on when you are done or get one that will be useable with a higher output LOMC such as the Fidelity Research. It might have just enough gain in the 31dB position to get some volume out of the system and then be usable with regular LOMC with the 26dB position. Done with it, put it on the bay for a bit more than you paid for it.

 

[toby7362]

@Blue Shadow
I didn’t understand your second sentence “Got any buddy with an extra chunk of gear? Want to buy an SUT to use with the MC-20 into an MM phono input, either the RS or the NAD?” — were you asking if I know of anyone with gear that would sell it to me? You are totally on the same same page as me on the investment.
The cartridge is old and I don’t want to buy an SUT or any device that can only be used with the MC-20.
And...although I like the moving coil, I might just be fine with an MM as I wouldn’t say my ears are as fine tuned as some.
You mentioned FR. If purchased, why do you believe someone would pay more for a new product that they could buy for themselves brand new?
Would a different receiver have a better phono stage? I know people rave about Marantz. Or is it just the name?
Finally, I noticed your in SE PA. Where about? I’m close to Philly.

 

[HalfApt]

I suspect (thou don't know for sure) that the PP2e uses an arrangement like this:



Fairly standard MM phono stage (typical 35-40dB gain), preceded by MC "pre-pre" (head-amp) stage to boost the voltage up to the MM stage input needs.

NAD specs MM at 35dB, MC at 60 dB (25+35). However, 25dB is inadequate for the MC20. You need at least 33-34dB in that stage.

I presume you bought the PP2e in order to use the MC20, without realizing the MC20 additional gain requirement? If so, you may be better off replacing the PP2e with a dedicated SUT or head-amp, with sufficient gain, to drive the Fisher directly:



You could then sell the PP2e to recoup some expense, or you could experiment first, to see if the PP2e phono stage is any better than the Fisher, like this, then decide to sell the PP2e or not:



Problem is finding an SUT or head-amp with that much boost. Very few (if any) cartridges made today have such low output as the MC20, so new devices to provide 33+ dB boost are very few and far between, and some tend to be expensive (one reason why DIY is so attractive).

I have no experience with SUTs, @rothwellaudio can advise best about them. I'm also not familiar with any current crop of head-amps that can provide that much gain out-of-the box, so vintage and/or DIY may be the only low-cost options.

 

[rothwellaudio]

I suspect (thou don't know for sure) that the PP2e uses an arrangement like this:

View attachment 2132083

I suspect, though I don't know for sure, that the PP2e isn't like that. I suspect that switching from mm to mc simply changes a feedback resistor to give more gain, and another resistor to change the input impedance. I could be wrong about that though.
An ideal SUT for the MC-20 would need a turns ratio between 1:50 and 1:60. Ortofon used to sell one and it may be possible to find a second hand one, but the OP doesn't want to go to that expense.
My recommendation is to just turn up the volume. If it's as loud as it ever needs to be when flat out, just live with it.

 

[E.Man]

It might be easier to get a later model. I had one and it was good with the variable gain on a Project Tube box.

 

[Blue Shadow]

The cartridge is old and I don’t want to buy an SUT or any device that can only be used with the MC-20.

That is why I recommended the FT SUT, usable with other LOMC as well as this VLOMC

You mentioned FR. If purchased, why do you believe someone would pay more for a new product that they could buy for themselves brand new?

FR is out of business. SUTs don't have a way of going bad they are just transformers and if you buy one right, you could sell it when done for more than you paid.

Would a different receiver have a better phono stage? I know people rave about Marantz. Or is it just the name?
Finally, I noticed your in SE PA. Where about? I’m close to Philly.

Yes, I my opinion, Marantz is just a name. Folks know the name and they think their friends will know the name so they decide they have to have that brand. It is good gear but in general sells for 3 times what a comparable chunk of gear will sell for from other manufacturers.

I'm in West Chester.

My recommendation is to just turn up the volume. If it's as loud as it ever needs to be when flat out, just live with it.

This is the key. If 7362 can get a volume from his receiver with the NAD in MC mode that he can enjoy then enjoy. If not he can do some things but they require gear and he doesn't want to spend money on gear.

 

[toby7362]

You guys are great. A lot to think about. I really appreciate the specific explanations. Now I know what I am looking to acquire.