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Ortofon Red - why such hate?

I've never owned a 2M Red, but it was interesting reading various reviews of it. One did address your comment about associated equipment. In his first review he found that "the Ortofon 2M Red was very bright and forward sounding with excessive noise," and he received manufacturer feedback that he "did not give the 2M Red enough break-in time." In a later review, and trying different equipment, he wrote:

"What a difference matching the right components can make. There was a significant improvement over my previous experience, especially with the excessive noise disappearing. I am surprised the manufacturer did not point out that the Red’s high output might have overloaded my stereo system and that component matching is critical. Once the noise was reduced, wonderful clarity became apparent. The bass was fairly deep. The midrange is a little more forward than my Sumiko Rainier ($149) and Olympia ($199). The previously-excessive highs were gone and balance between channels was even."

Another review offered this possibility:

"The Ortofon 2M Red is certainly a very entertaining cartridge, providing a big, solid, spacious sound with good detail and excellent dynamics. The delivery is crisp and punchy across the entire frequency range, with a particularly nicely textured bass, and can be very impressive on well-recorded material. So why the divided opinions from other users? This is still a bit of a mystery to me. I have even wondered about the possibility of sample variations – perhaps I have a particularly good example, though I doubt it. The slight treble brightness is probably at the root of some people’s dissatisfaction with this cartridge. I would certainly counsel against using it in a bright system, although its sparkle and dynamics could be invaluable in pepping up a dull system. So, my advice would be to consider this cartridge seriously but proceed with caution, depending on your system and tastes."

The above two comments both make sense to me. With regard to output level, the importers of three different pieces of gear I've owned cautioned against using any cartridge with an output higher than 5.0 mV at 1 kHz, 5 cm/s, and while the 2M Red is only slightly higher than that, it's enough to keep me from wanting one. With regard to tonal balance, an earlier comment in the second review cited above compared the 2M Red with the M97xE, saying, "The 2M Red is in stark contrast to the (now discontinued) Shure M97xE, which also retailed for under £100. The warm, comfy sound of the Shure is replaced with a sound that seems so much more alive in terms of dynamics and detail. But this is all down to taste." My taste happens to be in the direction of warm and comfy; I loved the M97xE while it was still in production, and that same reviewer described the AT3600L that I've been happy with for most of the last 4 1/2 years as, "it is a very easy listen and thoroughly entertaining. Its warm tones and gentle treble will appeal to a lot of people."
Shibatas are for CD-4 (and CD-4 has 15K audio response). ML outlasts Shibata (Shibata is what I'd say on wipe out sit-skiing on water when I still could). The 2M Red early on was very forward treble wise, and high output). The newer 2M Red is closer to the OM-10 presentation. (which I like better).
 
But doesn’t this reflect poorly on the value of the Ortofon upgrade path?

For the same price as a VM95-SH with its nude shibata stylus, you get a nude elliptical.
Agree highly, the AT-VM 95 SH is the cheapest way to Shibata. The AT-VM 500-700 family have cheaper Shibata/ML upgrade paths than Ortofon does (and are more competition than the AT-VM 95 is).
 
I'm going to mention something to you beans, and hope you at least think about it before you make a plunge. I see you say your income is fixed so you need to make good choices. Might I suggest, if you'd pay the $25.00 membership fee, you can go into Bartertown and place a WTB ad. Tell your story in there, Fixed income, looking at 2m red. Then ask someone if they could do better for you with what you have to spend. No doubt in my mind someone will come up with something better. It's exactly what I did when looking for a SAE 1000lt. I got a heck of a great deal on NOS cartridge for much less then I could get it anywhere else. Money I saved on that cart MORE then paid for the membership fee.

And your not obligated to buy anything anyone offers either.
Garry~
I am going to use barter town as you suggested. and no, I dont't need to join up... I've been a member for more than 15 years and have even sold some parts in Barter Town.

I have another option which is to replace the stylus in my old Stanton 681. When I first started shopping it looked like that was going to cost me over $300 but I found one at LP Gear for $110. I fell in love with the Stanton Stereohedron I once had. I read somewhere that stylus is similar to the Shibata... whatever. All I know is it was the best sound I've ever had. I had another one I got from LP Gear and it sounded really good, right up until the day the tip got damaged, which I still don't understand.
 
+5 for the fabulous little Audio Technica VM95-C (Conical).

[Read more here... Why the Audio Technica VM95-C?]

For the price of one Ortofon 2M Red (£85.00)...

In a heartbeat, I'd take an Audio Technica VM95-C (£34.00) + two spare VM95-C (£19.00 x 2) replacement conical styli.

Having spent a grand total of (£72.00) - for an easy total of 1500+ hours of useful playback - I'd spend my 13-quid savings on a decent brew!
:beerchug:

AUDIO-TECHNICA AT-VM95-C MM Cartridge on LP12 Hot-Rod LOW REZ.jpg
 
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Also agreed. The AT-VM95C is a brilliant cartridge for the money and, along with the AT-3600L, is my go-to for older basic turntables, music centres etc.

But for a half decent hi-fi turntable, I wouldn't use less than the AT-VM95E as a minimum.
Even the 95E sounded lifeless to me when I tried it.
 
To be fair, the Red is popular pre-fitted and on headshells, which the vast majority of new-users don’t even align properly leading to less than stellar performance . If aligned right on the right tonearm it is not that bad.
 
The VM95 conical sounds like a conical. I don't get the attraction.
The prices he quoted have changed since 2020 when the article came out, and, of course, systems, rooms, and ears vary, but Mr. Reichert described the attraction this way, "Speaking of force and vigor, the AT-VM95C (conical)—which is even cheaper than the $49 elliptical version, at $34—sounded cool, fast, and powerful but also detailed and invigorating. It played complex recordings, like the Stravinsky Conducts Histoire Du Soldat Suite, with power-packed, pitch-perfect bass, a flawlessly toned and detailed midrange, and enough upper-octave energy to make trumpets, drums, and woodwinds sound lifelike and exciting. Drum impact was spectacular. Music-pleasure–wise, Audio-Technica's VM95C was the most satisfying cartridge in this survey. It shifted my perspective and made me reconsider what I thought I knew about phonography."
 
I actually bought one after reading that article and it wasn't long before I upgraded to the elyptical. I have it on my list to get the ML. If folks like the sound of the conical, more power to them.
 
browsing the net i can't avoid massive hate against ortofon red...according to some, it is the worst cart ever, awful, not worthy of anyone's attention, have bad stylus, full of igd, is harsh and unbearable, etc...
I heard one years ago that was on a Project Expression that a friend had on loan from the local dealer. It was so bad we thought someone had screwed up the cartridge alignment, but it was spot on. Really awful cartridge.

jeff
 
I heard one years ago that was on a Project Expression that a friend had on loan from the local dealer. It was so bad we thought someone had screwed up the cartridge alignment, but it was spot on. Really awful cartridge.

jeff
well, i don't have any friends and trust my own ears in my own system...and i am allergic to bad screwed up sound...

when you think about it, the most concentration of hate against red i have found on reddit....you can bet, anytime someone mentions red there are bunch of visitors slapping negative adjectives left and right...
 
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Have never liked the sound of any Ortofon carts that I've ever heard. I find it funny that the price of the Red, even though it's stock on many tables, is so high. The stylus is too high compared to the entire cart. Also weird its found as stock on tables ranging from $350 to 1200 bucks, though that's probably a cost cutting measure on the TT seller.
 
Have never liked the sound of any Ortofon carts that I've ever heard. I find it funny that the price of the Red, even though it's stock on many tables, is so high. The stylus is too high compared to the entire cart. Also weird its found as stock on tables ranging from $350 to 1200 bucks, though that's probably a cost cutting measure on the TT seller.
if we forget audio technica...grado green starts at 150 euros in this part of europe...sumiko at 180 for rainer...nagaoka is hard to get, but it is no less than 130 euros for mp-100...rega, don't get me started...goldring e1 is around 100 euros...red is around 100 as well...and ortofon have some cheaper ones OM carts...playground is changing...
 
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if we forget audio technica...grado green starts at 125 euros in this part of europe...sumiko at 180 for rainer...nagaoka is hard to get, but it is no less than 120 euros for mp-100...rega, don't get me started...goldring e1 is 100 euros...red is around 100...and ortofon have some cheaper ones OM carts...playground is changing...
Ortofon 2m Red, though $109 here in the US, the replacement stylus is between $70-90. Can get some decent JICO replacement on other carts for that price. I will state @Chet63 that the initial cartridge cost I was thinking of, and mistakenly referred to in my post, was the Blue (double comparative).
 
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