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Ortofon X5-MC Mystery

silas1968

New Member
I have a Dual CS-5000 with an Ortofon X5-MC cartridge that I had retipped by Soundsmith with a ruby cantilever fitted with a nude contact line diamond.

When I first dropped the needle on a brand new high end pressing of ZZ Top's Rio Grande Mud, I could have wept. The turntable rumble was deafening. Simply put, it sounded awful.

I strongly suspect this has something to do with an area of hi-fi that has never interested me, and quite predictably blew up in my face. When people start talking about tonearm mass, I'll admit it, I kind of check out.

But, having spent $350 on the retip of a prized old discontinued high output moving coil cartridge that seems to have a reasonably good reputation, I'd really like to finally figure out what I did wrong (OK, what I did wrong was not doing my research).


I would be grateful if anybody could share some expertise and guidance and let me know what kind of turntable/tonearm would be the ideal fit for this modified cartridge. If I had to guess, what I've done here is put a Rolls Royce cartridge on a Chevy turntable and no amount of adjusting is going to make any difference.

Surely the root issue here is a fundamental mismatch between cartridge type and sensitivity made considerably worse by having installed a ruby cantilever fitted with a nude contact line diamond. I understand that azimuth is a key adjustment for this type of stylus.

And this is where I'll wrap it up. I did find a tonearm that has a dedicated and brilliantly engineered azimuth alignment adjustment, but it's $8000 for the tonearm alone.

That's about $7000 out of my price range and it doesn't even include a turntable.

Have I backed myself into a corner I cannot afford to buy my way out of?

I honestly thought I'd spent a good $350 on my favorite cartridge (I bent the hell out of the stock cantilever years ago) and turned it into a real tone monster. Instead, here I am three years later mired in regret and confusion.

I'd be grateful for any input, even if all I get is mockery and derision.

I'll attempt to attach a picture of the cartridge itself to add a little visual interest.20131127_133357.jpg
 
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I think the problem is not what you assume it is. I've used 5s and 10s in all sorts of arms without having issues, and the Dual you are using has a fairly low mass arm, so mass compliance problems seem more likely to result in a soft bass, not rumble. And azimuth problems would not cause rumble at all.
It may be that your turntable has some problem causing rumble, or that the record itself has (did you try other records, and did you just judge by the run in groove?). If the table sat unused while the cartridge was repaired, lubricants might have seized up. What phono section is being used, and does it have problems? Did you contact Soundsmith? Have you tried other cartridges?
It's boring to work through a checklist of possible issues, but its better than spending 8000 bucks, or feeling freaked out. This can be sorted out, and almost certainly not expensively - at worst, sell the cartridge and replace it with a 20 buck AT so that you make back almost all your money. But I suspect there is something else, not the cartridge or the arm that is the issue. So investigate and report back.
 
If I had to guess, what I've done here is put a Rolls Royce cartridge on a Chevy turntable and no amount of adjusting is going to make any difference.
Not in so many words, but... yes. I think the Ortofon X5-MC is just revealing what's there. If it's indeed a rumble issue, rather than overloading an MC phono stage input with a HOMC cart output (2mV), it's just there. According to this the CS-5000 tonearm effective mass is 13.5g and it place the RF of the O'fon at 10.25Hz, which is in range and is fine. The X5-MC can use around 2g of VTF, so keep that in mind b/c it's rather a lot relatively to what's usually found at the end of a CS-5000 tonearm.
 
Tom: Not really. Shall mean that the a 5000 usually should have no trouble with decent MCs with suitable compliance - so that's definitely not a Rolly Royce cart/Chevy table issue. There has to be some technical problem somewhere - maybe that wacky VTA-correction headshell...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
There is likely something wrong with setup of the cartridge. Have you double checked alignment, VTF, AS, etc?
 
I have a Dual CS-5000 with an Ortofon X5-MC cartridge that I had retipped by Soundsmith with a ruby cantilever fitted with a nude contact line diamond.

When I first dropped the needle on a brand new high end pressing of ZZ Top's Rio Grande Mud, I could have wept. The turntable rumble was deafening. Simply put, it sounded awful.

I strongly suspect this has something to do with an area of hi-fi that has never interested me, and quite predictably blew up in my face. When people start talking about tonearm mass, I'll admit it, I kind of check out.

But, having spent $350 on the retip of a prized old discontinued high output moving coil cartridge that seems to have a reasonably good reputation, I'd really like to finally figure out what I did wrong (OK, what I did wrong was not doing my research).


I would be grateful if anybody could share some expertise and guidance and let me know what kind of turntable/tonearm would be the ideal fit for this modified cartridge. If I had to guess, what I've done here is put a Rolls Royce cartridge on a Chevy turntable and no amount of adjusting is going to make any difference.

Surely the root issue here is a fundamental mismatch between cartridge type and sensitivity made considerably worse by having installed a ruby cantilever fitted with a nude contact line diamond. I understand that azimuth is a key adjustment for this type of stylus.

And this is where I'll wrap it up. I did find a tonearm that has a dedicated and brilliantly engineered azimuth alignment adjustment, but it's $8000 for the tonearm alone.

That's about $7000 out of my price range and it doesn't even include a turntable.

Have I backed myself into a corner I cannot afford to buy my way out of?

I honestly thought I'd spent a good $350 on my favorite cartridge (I bent the hell out of the stock cantilever years ago) and turned it into a real tone monster. Instead, here I am three years later mired in regret and confusion.

I'd be grateful for any input, even if all I get is mockery and derision.

I'll attempt to attach a picture of the cartridge itself to add a little visual interest.View attachment 1387598
I have the same exact setup but my cantilever is original. I will be interested on how this works out for you.
 
You wouldn't have hooked that turntable up to a phono input meant for a low output moving coil by chance?

And does that platter spindle have the correct amount of oil in it?

Cheers
Mister Pig
 
I agree that rumble isn't a symptom of bad alignment, incorrect tracking or antiskating force, or arm mass/cartridge compliance mismatch. It's odd though, that apparently the rumble wasn't an issue before retipping, though its hard to see how retipping would be a cause for rumble.
I am curious if other records have been tried - a new pressing might be defective, and if the first time it is played is with a new cartridge, it might seem to be the cartridge, not the record.
 
Thank you to everyone who took the time to help me reconsider and think a little more clearly about this. I'm an IT desktop support guy, so you would think I'd have taken a slightly more rational troubleshooting approach to this; I just got too disappointed and emotional about something I was expecting to turn out so incredibly well.

I thought about contacting SoundSmith, but I don't think I'd get much out of them other than the industry standard mockery and derision for not being able to solve a problem I don't have the tools, technique, experience, or time for.

My eyesight is too awful and my hands are too unsteady to safely remove the cartridge, so I had a friend do it for me. I let him have the CS-5000 in return for the help; he does a lot of hi-fi deal hunting at thrift stores and sometimes gets INCREDIBLE deals on serious gear that he then polishes up and resells on consignment (but has also amassed an actual wall of amplifiers, etc...).

I've resigned myself to accept that I'm about 20 years overdue for a turntable upgrade. I loved the CS-5000 dearly, but I've decided it's run its course. Now on to the next task; to figure out the best turntable value out there for roughly $1500. Part of the trick, of course, will be getting one without a cartridge included and buying from somebody local who is qualified to install and adjust the cartridge properly.

I just realized I never said what I plugged the turntable into. I have a Sansui 9090 restored by http://www.qrxrestore.com/. It is a howling, crushing beast of an amplifier, especially with all the caps and output transistors replaced and matched. I can feel the frame of my house move when I crank it up. The speakers are the original set of Sansui LM330s that my father bought with the 9090 in 1976 when we lived in Hong Kong (it was still a British colony then, and a roaring engine of commerce).

I remain convinced to this day that the LM330s, while a bit unusual, were absolutely intended to be paired with the 9090. With the super cool A/B/C/A+B/A+C speaker selection switch/circuit, I added a set of B&W bookshelf speakers to the mix and when I run them simultaneously with the LM330s, I won't claim that no frequencies are added or subtracted and that I get a perfect three dimensional sound stage, but my God.....it's quite the rig for bombastic rock and roll or classical. The trick is not destroying the voice coils on the LM330s. I've had the crossovers on those rebuilt with audiophile grade caps as well. The enclosures on those things are outrageously heavy and solid. I really think that's what makes them shine.

The Sansui 9090 repair manual reveals the phono stage specs in detail. I see 2.5mV/50 kilo ohms input as the input sensitivity/impedence, but with a maximum capacity of 200mV at 1kHz with less than .2% THD. This must have been before the advent of high output MC cartridges.

Image of the phono stage specs from the manual attached. Thanks again, everybody. It was kind of you to respond so helpfully and intelligently.9090 Phono Stage.PNG
 
Wow there is a lot to consider here, and others have given good advice.

But first I need to ask, why on Earth did you not contact Soundsmith about this problem? You are the customer. YOU paid THEM $350 to restore a cartridge that obviously has value to you. A cartridge that you are now having problems with.

I have found them very responsive when you communicate through their system, and they have done me great service by repairing a costly mistake on my part.

Ask to see the measured specs post repair, especially the output voltage (if they didn't send these data to you already). Most likely the cart was within specs (or even better) when they shipped it back to you, but mistakes can happen.

Good luck!
 
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s68: Imo separating from a pretty good Dual table, before you've determined, whether there's actually something wrong with it (and not rather the repaired cart) and what exactly, would seem a somewhat rash decision to me. Especially as not knowing, what exactly might be wrong with it, might have a rather negative impact on the attractiveness of the offer and the resale value - or would you be inclined to buy a table described as "works, but rumbles like hell for whatever reason...", unless the price was really low?

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
Was the CS-5000/X5 combination OK before you sent the cartridge away to be re-tipped? If so, then something has happened to it during the course of the work, and you need to speak to Soundsmith.
 
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