PA Speaker vs Home Speaker

[piscator]

What's different about a PA speaker vs. a Home Speaker?

I've wondered this for a long time and hope you folks won't mind another naive question.

The accoustic band I was in used EV PA speakers (not powered) that had a 15" driver and a horn overtop. We powered it with a Mackie amp. Other bands I've seen used similar JBL PA speakers.

Obviously, PA speakers are ruggedly built, but is that the only difference?

If a PA speaker is the 'right' choice to project live music, why isn't it the right choice for play-back in the living room?

I must be missing an obvious answer and hope you'll forgive me for that.

Thanks, piscator

 

[kfa888]

They can work but are designed to throw it WAY out there which in your typical living room is less than ideal. Lots of other reasons but yes, they are built different, more than just the cab.

 

[Sir.Byrd]

Sometimes frequency response is substituted for volume/efficiency? Don't quote me on that though...

 

[dinglebeer]

Sometimes frequency response is substituted for volume/efficiency? Don't quote me on that though...

See what I did there? As far as I know that's always the case, that's why PA systems have bass cabs/subs. Even the bass units usually don't go all that low compared to a good home use subwoofer.

 

[Zilch]

Big room, small room. For sound reinforcement, SPL, directivity, and intelligibility are king.

Small venues, they're just doing vocals. The larger it gets, the more is mic'd and direct wired, and the requirements again change.

The technology and many of the principles developed for sound reinforcement are finding their way into home systems, but they must be applied intelligently.

Cost is a major hurdle; quality pro gear is not cheap. We're talking orders of magnitude here.... :yes:

 

[piscator]

Zilch,

But are not our band's EV's (15" driver + horn) essentially what y'all trying to accomplish in the 89 page "horn project"?

Is this what you mean by, 'sound reinforcement finding its' way into home systems'?

Should the band's 'property manager' (me) forget about 'Klipshorns' and run the PA speakers in my wife's living room?

Rhetorically speaking, In what respect are PA speakers 'good' in the living room?

P.S. Thanks for your reply! I read and enjoy your comments everywhere!

And, of course thanks to everyone, I'm learnin'

piscator

 

[Zilch]

But are not our band's EV's (15" driver + horn) essentially what y'all trying to accomplish in the 89 page "horn project"?

We're using some of the same technology, in more refined form, and applying it differently.

Is this what you mean by, 'sound reinforcement finding its' way into home systems'?

Yes. See the Toole white papers.

Should the band's 'property manager' (me) forget about 'Klipshorns' and run the PA speakers in my wife's living room?

Nope, wrong woofer, wrong tuning, wrong horn, wrong crossover, and the wrong compression driver, most likely.

[I wouldn't run Klipshorns, either, but that's YOUR choice. ]

Rhetorically speaking, In what respect are PA speakers 'good' in the living room?

They're not, generally speaking. What you want is their clarity, dynamics, uniform power response, and directivity control.... :yes:

 

[karlo]

agreed .

PA speakers are not home hifi . they have little in common . PA speakers make some of
the worst sounding living-room speakers , and vicey-versey .

Sound reinforcement is about projection ,clarity,dispersion ...... with frequency
extremes not as important as being heard properly everywhere in the room/venue.

 

[similost]

well.....


I DO run PA speakers at home. Yes, right now they are Altec VOTTS, but those ARE PA speakers. Just "old school" pa though...

I've run Kenwood PA speakers in my living room.. they sounded GREAT.. I also have a pair of Community speakers that are very close to what your EV speakers are, or like the Yamaha club series speakers.. They sounded good to... I also have a pair of Peavey bass bins stacked on top of my Altecs.. yes, VERY PA..

However, they don't have the same sound as home speakers. They have a more live sound. Some are more flat in certian areas. Some are brighter sounding in certian ranges.. Some people like that colorization, some people don't.. I DO..

All you can do is set up your speakers and try them out. If you like them, more power to you.. if you don't, don't give up on the K-horns, but be prepaired to start forking out some serious money..

As for the nay sayers about PA speakers in the home.. I have to ask if they have listened to any in a home, and if so, how many different combinations?

There are quite a few people on this forum running PA speakers in their home, and they are very happy with the results.. I know the people that have heard mine have been impressed with the sound... but I'll let those that have and see this speak up. I don't want to put words in their mouthes.

Now if you want to build a decent horn project, I'd listen to Zilch. The man knows what he is doing, and has done a lot of research.. however, remember, the sound he likes is different from the sound I like, or the sound others like. Everyone has a preference, and horns seem to cause the biggest difference in opinions.. If you want to just listen to your horns without a lot of work.. ENJOY.. If you want to build some bad ass sounding horns, talk to Zilch.

 

[scootchu]

I have a set of KP-301 II's that sound pretty damned good as a home stereo speaker.

 

[Fred Sanford]

I think, in general, they're going to do what they're designed to do. If they had actual engineering in their design process, that is- I've seen plenty of "P.A." speakers that were random drivers, random crossovers, random dimensions, random ports, etc.

If they were designed for DJs to use in small venues, or for smaller theaters where clarity is most important, I'd think they could be acceptable for some home use. If designed for max SPL and long throw distances, it's likely you won't be getting what you want out of them in a home situation.

je, with lots and lots and lots of experience using Pro gear as home stereo...Altec, Peavey, EV, JBL, EAW, etc.

 

[piscator]

Zilch, thank you for your careful explanation.

We're using some of the same technology, in more refined form, and applying it differently.

The 'devil's always in the details' isn't it!

Karlo, this is well put and, I think, reinforces Zilch's comments:

Sound reinforcement is about projection, clarity, dispersion ...... with frequency extremes not as important as being heard properly everywhere in the room/venue.

This might explain why my Energy C-22's didn't work very well when I tried to use them as outdoor PA's :nono:

Still, if I'm reading correctly, it seems you and Zilch might allow that certain criteria could make PA speakers a suitable choice. Which is where these guys come in...

Fred Sanford, Scootchu, Similost

Thanks for the differing viewpoint. I set up our PA speakers in living rooms and 'on breaks' I thought they sounded pretty good playing recorded music.

I'm starting to comprehend speakers as a tool to be used differently depending on application. That may seem obvious to you guys, but previously I assumed that all speakers had the same goal and that somewhere out there is the 'perfect speaker for all occassions'.

Thanks for my continuing education!

piscator

 

[Zilch]

I'm starting to comprehend speakers as a tool to be used differently depending on application.

Let me ask you, as the band's Property Manager, exactly what were you running through those EV 15" + horn speakers?

Drum kit mic'd? Bass in the mix through a direct box? Keyboards? Guitars too? Vocals? Vocal effects? Synth? EQ on the works to tune for the venue?

Band goes on break and kicks on the CD player through their PA, it mostly sucks by comparison, in my experience. It's the house DJ system what's set up for reproduction. Production, reproduction, and reinforcement each have different requirements.... :yes:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=11730

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=17837

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=21741

 

[piscator]

Zilch,

Let me ask you, as the band's property manager, exactly what were you running through those EV 15" + horn speakers?

Good lord, with the last band I frequently asked myself that very same question! :lmao:

Too often we were 'running' musicians complaining they weren't loud enough! :lmao:

Seriously, we tried so many different things it's a bit hard to answer, but mainly we ran the vocals and harmonica. Sometimes the keyboard.

The two accoustic guitars went through a seperate amp. Bass player had a seperate amp. Congos and percussion were ambient. No drummer.

To be honest, with the EV's we ran a CD 'on break' only a few times and that was in a living room when we played private parties. I thought it sounded O.K. but I wasn't listening critically -- more interested in 'wettin' my whistle'

Recently I've been playing with just one other guitarist and we did a patio party this summer. We used an Ipod to play some 'oldies and novelty songs'. Again, I was handing the guests rhythm instruments and not listening critically. I just 'stopped for a sec' and thought "that sounds better than I expected"

EQ on the works to tune for the venue?

As 'property manager' I can tell you we're lucky if we can get all the mic's working! :lmao:

Not good answers, but truthful ones. I was generalizing about my overall impression. I keep one PA setup in my basement for rehearsals and often throw on 'Hannah Montana' for my daughters and their friends to 'jam' with. I thought it sounded decent, but I wasn't being picky.

I have a love/hate relationship with PA's. The job kinda fell on me. In my very limited experience and humble opinion, anyone who takes on the job of 'sound engineer' for 'local' musicians should either be a SAINT or HEAVILY MEDICATED! :lmao:

More to the point, I've found the EV's with 15" drivers really worked best at outdoor venues (town greens) where we needed to turn up the juice. At private parties, I've found our smaller PA speakers do a better job.

I claim NO expertise here. I got 'elected' 'property manager' :lmao:

I'll check out your links! And,

Thanks for the conversation!

piscator

P.S. I'm being pithy, but really I should read up on PA setup, because I really would like to a better job of it.

 

[Zilch]

Seriously, we tried so many different things it's a bit hard to answer, but mainly we ran the vocals and harmonica. Sometimes the keyboard.

That's the answer I expected, actually. :thmbsp:

We go to a club, hear a great band, and say, "Jeez, that band sounded REALLY good! I'm gonna get a pair of those speakers they were using for home!"

Well, non-sequitur. In all likelihood, the band wasn't playing through them at all, even.

Look in the 2007 Jerry Day thread for how a larger club is set up. It's measured, mapped, modeled, engineered, and programmed to produce the sound we enjoy.

Same with concerts like Bo does -- majorly measured, mixed and EQ'd to be "right." There's a poopot of forums where the pros compare notes and share information regarding modern sound reinforcement technology and its application.

The reciprocal is also true: Anyone who believes they're replicating what the big boys do by stacking random thrift store finds in their living room is, well, "unclear on the fundamental concepts...." :yes:

 

[GordonW]

I am finding that a lot of what the pros are learning in public address speakers, DO go a long way in addressing the historical limitations of home-audio speakers.

Things like power response, time delay response, polar response... those are things that were found to be ESSENTIAL for good public-address sound- FIRST in the pro arena. And whadd'ya know? They're ALSO important for your home audio system to sound like "you are there"!

Stuff like constant-directivity waveguides, dual-concentric drivers, stepped/shaped baffles, use of electrical time delay, parametric equalization... those, almost to the last one, were first worked out in professional applications. But, I couldn't imagine a truly good home audio setup, without applying a LOT of those same concepts...

And, to address the original poster's considerations- yes, there are some VERY GOOD sounding PA speakers. The Altec VOTT setup was the past example... more modern examples are some of the Frazier speakers (the 66s and 99s, for instance), the JBL Vertec series (with all the setup and tuning capability in that system, you can get remarkably good results!), and ESPECIALLY many of the Tannoy dual-concentric-based pro units. Capable of nice, even response, good power response, and admirably good dynamic range. And in the case of the Tannoys, pin-point imaging capacity as well, if the install allows it!

In then other direction, I'm finding that the very best home audio designs are those that MELD a lot of the PA speaker "usual features" into their designs. Controlled dispersion is a big example... dual-concentric drivers and waveguides go a LONG way toward reducing "sonic smear" and reflection problems, for one example...

In essence- I think that home audio and pro audio speakers- at least the best-of-breed- are starting to look and sound MORE ALIKE. As we progress toward "perfect sound" (little by little, brick by brick), it's appearing that there is possibly one single ideal... at least, using the technologies we're accustomed to, in current-day practice...

HOWEVER- that said, I hate to say, but, there are some TRULY ABYSMALLY BAD PA speakers out there, too. Too many with primitive crossovers, woofers driven beyond their useful frequency ranges, poorly-damped cabinets, poorly designed horns with significant artifacts, and such. BUT- it's nice to know that if you CARE, you CAN find PA speakers that DO BEHAVE WELL... you just have to CARE and know what to look for (as described above)...

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[dnewma04]

I'd gladly use a couple of PA speakers in my home, but they are pretty rare. Yorkville U215 and U15 come to mind. Pro drivers are built better than all but the best home audio drivers.

 

[karlo]

there are some awesome pa speakers...expensive TAD's and Altecs and Klipsch and such...
but most are built with utility in mind...bang/buck ratio.

Peavey , Kustom ,Fender,Traynor , Bullfrog..... garage band material .

i wouldn't enjoy sitting in my living room in front of a nifty pair of peavey SP-3's,
screaming in my face ...ouch! instant headache.

 

[luddite]

Today I was considering a pair of Traynor PA speakers with 15" woofers and nice big horns. They looked like they might be better than most of what I've got. But you say that they would sound terrible in a home stereo setup. Too bad. They sure looked like something for the price. I guess I'll pass on them.

 

[petehall347]

if pa speakers are used in the home with the rest of the rack it should sound good ..i have done a few after parties with pa speakers and my rack ..it sounds just as good as in larger rooms .. if it was the other way round and house speakers in the venue that would be another story ..
bearing in mind some pa speakers don't come alive until the neighbours are phoning the police .