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Phono vs. CD output level.

So it I look at the specs on a Schiit Mani preamp I can see what the gains at different settings are. How do I determine what the gain is in the phono section on my Marantz? I would want a higher, but not too much higher, choice on the Mani, and then run that through the tape monitor on the 2215B, correct?
 
4-2-7 said:
I don't prescribe to reducing a digital input to match a phono input using line attenuators and or switch volume controls. Think of it this way, the shortest path for the signal is the best, the more switching and filters your signal goes through, the more it's degraded. Systems overall output performance will also suffer doing this, in other words it will not play as loud reducing all the input gain.

However depending on your vinyl front end components you choose, gain volume can match or even be better than a digital input. This is where learning about cartridges and staging comes into play and experimenting with different components.

Marantz 2215
Power output: 15 watts per channel into 8Ω (stereo)
Frequency response: 15Hz to 50kHz
Total harmonic distortion: 0.9%
Damping factor: 45
Input sensitivity: 1.8mV (MM), 180mV (line)
Signal to noise ratio: 77dB (line)

Input sensitivity has a huge discrepancy in line & phono, and can be overcome with cartridge choices and better staging.
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Ya thats what we do , i didnt think he was quite there yet with gain staging. Simple fix question.
 
JJCalvillo said:
So it I look at the specs on a Schiit Mani preamp I can see what the gains at different settings are. How do I determine what the gain is in the phono section on my Marantz? I would want a higher, but not too much higher, choice on the Mani, and then run that through the tape monitor on the 2215B, correct?
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I think this is getting too deep for what you were simply asking for. the mani is adjustable , it can possibly match your cd level with the + 56db? gain, , it doesnt go into the phono input, it goes into the tape or aux, this db adjustment is what changes your phono level, i find the cart voltages dont change the volume if the phono pre is db not increased, your receiver phono db is not adjustable........soooo... play some music and Turn up your receiver volume like the rest of us.
 
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freQ(*)Oddio said:
I think this is getting too deep for what you were simply asking for. the mani is adjustable , it can possibly match your cd level with the + 56db? gain, , it doesnt go into the phono input, it goes into the tape or aux, this db adjustment is what changes your phono level, i find the cart voltages dont change the volume if the phono pre is db not increased, your receiver phono db is not adjustable........soooo... play some music and Turn up your receiver volume like the rest of us.
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I don’t want to match the CD, just not have the large difference I have now. Checked the owner’s manual and it says phono gain is 36db. If I were to go with a Mani and use the standard MM gain of 42db, would that be a noticable difference? Too much?
 
What you need to know is this: dB of gain = 20 * log(output/input).

So with the 36 dB gain, 36 = 20 * log(x/5), so you should be getting about 315 millivolts of output.

Now lets try 42 = 20 * log(x/5). That should result in about 625 millivolts of output, which is likely to be considerably closer to the CD player. It would hardly be too much, but should provide a nice solid signal.
 
vinyl1 said:
What you need to know is this: dB of gain = 20 * log(output/input).

So with the 36 dB gain, 36 = 20 * log(x/5), so you should be getting about 315 millivolts of output.

Now lets try 42 = 20 * log(x/5). That should result in about 625 millivolts of output, which is likely to be considerably closer to the CD player. It would hardly be too much, but should provide a nice solid signal.
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What is log?
 
vinyl1 said:
Logarithm. If you weren’t into math in school, figuring out the value of x in these equations may prove difficult.
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My problem is school was the last time I was into math, and that was millions of moons ago.

So you'd give the Mani (or other pre-amp) a shot?
 
As a rough rule of thumb you need about 40dB gain for a typical mm cartridge and about 60dB for a typical mc cartridge.
If your phonostage has options for gain, nudge it up from there if you think it's too quiet. Don't go overboard with gain just because you have it available - you risk loosing headroom and increasing distortion.
 
rothwellaudio said:
As a rough rule of thumb you need about 40dB gain for a typical mm cartridge and about 60dB for a typical mc cartridge.
If your phonostage has options for gain, nudge it up from there if you think it's too quiet. Don't go overboard with gain just because you have it available - you risk loosing headroom and increasing distortion.
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Thank you, that's an important detail that is good to know.
The 2215B has 36db gain in the phono section. So, over time, the amount of gain in an amp or receiver has increased a little bit, or the Baby Marantz was always a little short when it came to gain?
 
My experience has been that "back in the day" the closer to entry level a receiver or integrated was, the lower the gain in the phono section. A generalization, to be sure. For example - my Yamaha CA-410 had much bigger jump between running the phono stage and line level inputs, the CA-1010 did not.
 
JJCalvillo said:
So, over time, the amount of gain in an amp or receiver has increased a little bit, or the Baby Marantz was always a little short when it came to gain?
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A phonostage raises the cartridge's output to be roughly the same as the "line level" sources. In the old days maybe "line level" sources weren't as hot as CD players and the like, so not as much gain was needed from the phonostage to match them. The phonostage and the line inputs would also go the linestage gain section, which would add gain to both the line inputs and the phonostage, so the phono input ended up with more gain than the phonostage alone would give it.
These days line inputs generally don't need much gain at all - indeed many line inputs don't have any gain - so it's not a bad idea for the phonostage to have a bit more gain than in the old days.

Anyway, that's just my guess :dunno:
 
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