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Picked up a Rough KX-100 Tube Amp - Will need some guidance

V7 and V9 have their heaters reversed because of the position of Pin 1. If you look at the sockets, they aren't aligned with pin 1 in the same place. V7 and V9 are about 120* from the V8 and V10. The heaters don't know any better, as they'll take voltage from either direction. Plus they are AC so it really doesn't matter.

I still do it the old way. Solder the resistors to pin 3 and daisy chain the power lead to them. If Dave G. has ok'ed it, it's GOOD! It's your gear, do it which either way you want.
 
V7 and V9 have their heaters reversed because of the position of Pin 1. If you look at the sockets, they aren't aligned with pin 1 in the same place. V7 and V9 are about 120* from the V8 and V10. The heaters don't know any better, as they'll take voltage from either direction. Plus they are AC so it really doesn't matter.

I still do it the old way. Solder the resistors to pin 3 and daisy chain the power lead to them. If Dave G. has ok'ed it, it's GOOD! It's your gear, do it which either way you want.

Larry, I wasn't worried about why the heater lugs are reversed - it was that the main diagram was wrong is all. It isn't important though as it will work either way. After all it's just the heater....

I didn't see your post in time and so I went ahead and did it according to the link in post 79. It was pretty easy to do and only took about an hour to install the wires I had prepped last night with the shrink-wrapped resistors already on them. Looks pretty close to the pick in that post which is pretty clean.
 
So, next I'm on to installing the inrush limiters and re-stuffing the PS caps. I'll have to figure out what comes after - maybe the coupling caps? Bias resistors? Thoughts?

So what should I do with the 0.047uF coupling caps? Replace with same values? Replace with 0.1uF? I've seen that done in other threads, but it seems to go hand-in-hand with changing the bias resistors too.
 
Actually the coupling cap change goes hand in hand with Grid return resistors. It's mainly on Fixed BIAS that have 330K grid return resistors and .047 caps. Cathode bias is a bit different. The grid returns are still 330k, but here's where you need to look up the spec's for the 7591's.
Fixed bias allows for a max grid return resistor of 330K.
CATHODE BIAS allows for a maximum grid return resistor of 1 MEGOHM

So the only thing you need to do is replace the .047uf/ 250v and .047uf 400v caps with 600v or 630v. Your choice of caps.
See POST #45 in this thread for more detail on this. (Page 3).

One more thing on C1.
As it's a cardboard covered can (hot shell) it sits on a phenolic wafer that insulates it from the chassis. It's part of the Voltage doubler circuit (the two stacked can caps) so the "ground" is above chassis potential. It ties into the 2nd cap and a few other items but NEVER the Chassis. So you'll need the phenolic wafer / spacer for the can to sit on.
https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/insulator-4-section-fp-cap
s-h120_copy.png


Get a couple, just in case you get ham handed and crack one. It don't take much.
Or get a Hayseed can cap and specify it's a doubler cap with the cover and ask Tom to include the phenolic wafer. Probably the easiest way to go.
 
If C1 is 200uf @ 250v, Hayseed will have them in stock. They are the common value/voltage on most all FISHER's with Voltage doublers. Except the 400 which is 100uf @ 250v.

Do me a favor and list ALL the Caps values and voltages in a vertical format

FOR EXAMPLE
(Value/Voltage/and shape if its stamped into can. Shapes are Square, 1/2moon, Triangle. on a 4 section cap the last section doesn't have a shape it's blank)
C3 200uf/ 450V
200uf/350v
200uf/350v
50uf/300v

Do this for all can caps on the KX-100. I'll check them against all of TOM's kits and see if any match. Otherwise he'll have to cobble a kit together. Which gives him another kit to post up.
It doesn't take him any longer to make up a kit from stock. And no extra charge for specials either.
 
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If C1 is 200uf @ 250v, Hayseed will have them in stock. They are the common value/voltage on most all FISHER's with Voltage doublers. Except the 400 which is 100uf @ 250v.

Do me a favor and list ALL the Caps values and voltages in a vertical format

FOR EXAMPLE
(Value/Voltage/and shape if its stamped into can. Shapes are Square, 1/2moon, Triangle. on a 4 section cap the last section doesn't have a shape it's blank)
C3 200uf/ 450V
200uf/350v
200uf/350v
50uf/300v

Do this for all can caps on the KX-100. I'll check them against all of TOM's kits and see if any match. Otherwise he'll have to cobble a kit together. Which gives him another kit to post up.
It doesn't take him any longer to make up a kit from stock. And no extra charge for specials either.

Hi Larry,

So I think I have almost everything I need to re-stuff the existing caps, but here is what the parts list for the KX-100 says and what I ordered to stuff them with from DK. Note that my C1 was missing and replaced with what looked like some motor start cap that was ugly. I've got a cardboard covered replacement coming that I'll re-stuff - care of another AK member.

C1 Electrolytic 200uF, 250V [To be stuffed with: ALUM 220UF 20% 250V RADIAL]
C2 Electrolytic 2 section:
A: 200uF, 250V [To be stuffed with: ALUM 220UF 20% 250V RADIAL]
B: 40uF, 500V [To be stuffed with: ALUM 47UF 20% 450V RADIAL]
C3 Electrolytic 3 section:
A: 40uF, 450V [To be stuffed with: ALUM 47UF 20% 450V RADIAL]
B: 40uF, 400V [To be stuffed with: ALUM 47UF 20% 450V RADIAL]
C: 20uF, 300V [To be stuffed with: ALUM 22UF 20% 350V RADIAL]
C4 Electrolytic 100uF, 100V [Already replaced with: Axial 100uF 100V]

I was thoughtfully trying to purchase sizes that would fit into the existing can's. I went a little shy on the voltage on the B part of C2, but it will probably be ok. I won't know how successful I am (C3 is the only concern) until I get to the stuffing part, but I think it will be fine. (Before I start that though I'll look to see if it is easier/better to just put them all under the board and abandon the cans in place for appearance's sake. Options. Options.

So, I've been reading the various threads about the bias circuit and it seems that many are changing out the coupling caps from 0.047uF to 0.1uF in conjunction with changing out the bias resistors from 330K to around 200K. The info seems to point to cooler and less stressed tubes. That interests me. I might later be interested in the IBAM, but for now I'll try it with the fixed bias and take all the voltage measurements when I get to the point of bringing it up on the variac.

I've also seen mention of 100 ohm grid resistors which seem to be about protection from red plating? Runaway? The consensus is that this is less popular.

I've got nothing but time on my hands so I don't mind doing the right thing with this "son of ratrig" - battle scars and all.
 
There seems to be some confusion with regard to your designations of parts, and the type of bias configuration on the KX-100.
1.) There is fixed bias (which is adjustable via an IBAM or IBBA board.) and there is cathode bias which is NOT adjustable, and usually has 3 or 4 12ax7 heaters in the circuit to define the bias voltage. CATHODE BIAS is the choice FISHER made for all of it's integrated amplifiers. Subsequently, there is NO NEED for an IBAM OR IBBA BOARD.

The change from .047uf to .1uf and from 330K to 200k is in the p.i. to output tube coupling part of the signal path. Nothing to do with BIAS at this point, and only changed in units with FIXED BIAS (See 400 receiver schematic for changes in circuits from the integrated amps).

2.) in conjunction with this, because of the Cathode Bias, the grid return resistors (330K) do NOT need to be changed to 220K (see my previous post #45). This also applies to the 7868 tube with regard to the grid return resistor . Check the RCA TUBE MANUALS for the 7591 and 7868.

3.) the 100ohm screen stability resistors are highly recommended on units running 7591's and 7868's, running fixed or cathode bias. If you want the really technical stuff, read Dave G's article Techniques to maximize output tube life. It's cheap insurance.

4.) Exactly which schematic are you using as your primary schematic on the kx-100? I've seen mention of at least 3 different ones. This would help immensely with us all being on the same page.

On the 3 section, you might want to look for Nichicon or Panasonic Pencil type electrolytics. They are thin diameter and fairly long , hence the pencil type designation, and will fit better than standard caps, inside a can.
47uf 450v http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/UCS2W470MHD/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMukHu%252bjC5l7YRd4ZGF74MrJI%2fF1C41h8dA%3d
22uf 350v http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...Q8yFiqkYe99O97IN6iMSbF3Mk85FdQ8Zjde5L/pUWgA==
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...Q8yFiqkYe99O97IN6iMSbF3Mk85FdQ8Zjde5L/pUWgA==
I think it's a No Go on the 450V for the 500V cap. Not enough headroom for surge voltage on startup. and its possible that the operating voltage is very close to the max for a 450v. I'd have to look at the actual schematic for the KX-100 to see but I'd stick with a 500v.
47uf 500v
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...iMZZMukHu%2bjC5l7Ydo%2bQ%2bCrLK6SRQh1t5Hjvx8=
220uf 250V
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...xOHWs4jln9Di1kdbWhJMKaYdYeEUMqc7gY5/zstTB6g==
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...xOHWs4jln9Di1kdbWhJMKaYdYeEUMqc7gY5/zstTB6g==
All of the above linked caps are Pencil types except for the UCY which is the only 500v cap that would reasonably fit and still be 1/2way inexpensive. It's always ok to go UP in Voltage, But NOT to Go down in Voltage.
 
There seems to be some confusion with regard to your designations of parts, and the type of bias configuration on the KX-100.
1.) There is fixed bias (which is adjustable via an IBAM or IBBA board.) and there is cathode bias which is NOT adjustable, and usually has 3 or 4 12ax7 heaters in the circuit to define the bias voltage. CATHODE BIAS is the choice FISHER made for all of it's integrated amplifiers. Subsequently, there is NO NEED for an IBAM OR IBBA BOARD.

The change from .047uf to .1uf and from 330K to 200k is in the p.i. to output tube coupling part of the signal path. Nothing to do with BIAS at this point, and only changed in units with FIXED BIAS (See 400 receiver schematic for changes in circuits from the integrated amps).

2.) in conjunction with this, because of the Cathode Bias, the grid return resistors (330K) do NOT need to be changed to 220K (see my previous post #45). This also applies to the 7868 tube with regard to the grid return resistor . Check the RCA TUBE MANUALS for the 7591 and 7868.

3.) the 100ohm screen stability resistors are highly recommended on units running 7591's and 7868's, running fixed or cathode bias. If you want the really technical stuff, read Dave G's article Techniques to maximize output tube life. It's cheap insurance.

4.) Exactly which schematic are you using as your primary schematic on the kx-100? I've seen mention of at least 3 different ones. This would help immensely with us all being on the same page.

On the 3 section, you might want to look for Nichicon or Panasonic Pencil type electrolytics. They are thin diameter and fairly long , hence the pencil type designation, and will fit better than standard caps, inside a can.
47uf 450v http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/UCS2W470MHD/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMukHu%252bjC5l7YRd4ZGF74MrJI%2fF1C41h8dA%3d
22uf 350v http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/UCS2V220MHD/?qs=/ha2pyFadujQ8yFiqkYe99O97IN6iMSbF3Mk85FdQ8Zjde5L/pUWgA==
I think it's a No Go on the 450V for the 500V cap. Not enough headroom for surge voltage on startup. and its possible that the operating voltage is very close to the max for a 450v. I'd have to look at the actual schematic for the KX-100 to see but I'd stick with a 500v.
47uf 500v
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/UCY2H470MHD6/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMukHu%2bjC5l7Ydo%2bQ%2bCrLK6SRQh1t5Hjvx8=
220uf 250V
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/UCS2E221MHD/?qs=/ha2pyFadujxOHWs4jln9Di1kdbWhJMKaYdYeEUMqc7gY5/zstTB6g==
All of the above linked caps are Pencil types except for the UCY which is the only 500v cap that would reasonably fit and still be 1/2way inexpensive. It's always ok to go UP in Voltage, But NOT to Go down in Voltage.

Hi Larry,

I'm using the KX-100 diagram that came with the assembly manual. I am not using the X-100-B diagram because they are slightly different than my unit. Here is a pic of the output portion and a zoom into the top output tube. I'm still digging through your post. It is chock full of information. Thanks!

IMG_2704.JPG IMG_2703.JPG
 
Just as I thought, CATHODE BIAS. No need for an ibam, as the tubes are self biasing by way of the cathode voltage. Please DO install cathode resistors (10ohm) off the tubes(pin3) and connect to the wire taken off the tube. Do this for all 4 tubes. this way you can check the tube draw and swap them around to balance them out.

You should also install 100 ohm screen resistors(Pin1) between the tube and the screen lead. Do for all 4 tubes.

With 42v to the cathode, the 4 tubes used as loads are being starved @ 42v (or 10.75V each on the heaters) If you have a bias adjustment pot on the KX-100, adjust it up to 44V. This will give the heaters 11V each. These are the phono and 1st line stage tubes. They will take forever to get up to speed with 42V on them total.

I'll ask Dave G to step in and give us the lowdown on how to raise the bias voltage on the kx-100. I think it's a resistor change but don't know which one.
 
Just as I thought, CATHODE BIAS. No need for an ibam, as the tubes are self biasing by way of the cathode voltage. Please DO install cathode resistors (10ohm) off the tubes(pin3) and connect to the wire taken off the tube. Do this for all 4 tubes. this way you can check the tube draw and swap them around to balance them out.

You should also install 100 ohm screen resistors(Pin1) between the tube and the screen lead. Do for all 4 tubes.

With 42v to the cathode, the 4 tubes used as loads are being starved @ 42v (or 10.75V each on the heaters) If you have a bias adjustment pot on the KX-100, adjust it up to 44V. This will give the heaters 11V each. These are the phono and 1st line stage tubes. They will take forever to get up to speed with 42V on them total.

I'll ask Dave G to step in and give us the lowdown on how to raise the bias voltage on the kx-100. I think it's a resistor change but don't know which one.

Larry,

Here is the diagram for the X-100-B with the bias circuit circled. The main difference between the KX-100 and the X-100-B is the adjustable bias. That's an easy change to add the pot and change two resistors.Fisher probably did this for the kit builders who might not have the skills to calibrate the unit once assembled.

IMG_2708.JPG
 
Larry,

Here is the diagram of the power supply showing the C2B and the designed voltage on it. Thoughts?

IMG_2709.JPG
 
With 42 vdc across the heater string, it means each tube on average is operating with 10.5 vdc -- which surely does make the tubes slow to warm. The benefit however is that operating the tubes at less than rated heater voltage improves the signal to noise ratio of the tube with virtually no loss of gain. It also means that at 10.5 volts, the typical 12AX7 will draw 135 ma, rather than its rated 150 ma at 12.6 volts.

But there is also that 560 Ω resistor. At 42 volts across it, the resistor is drawing 75 mA. There's another 4 mA flowing through the bias divider resistors. Adding all of this up, it means that there is a total of 214 mA flowing though all four output tubes, or on average, 53.5 mA per tube. Allowing 3.5 mA to account for screen grid current, it means that the plate current in each tube is 50 mA. With a schematic indicated plate-to-cathode voltage of 393 volts, this places the plate dissipation for each tube at 19.65 watts, or 103.4% of rating. The tubes are getting cooked -- and particularly so if the unit is operating from today's typical AC line voltages, where the individual tube dissipation will be even higher.

Fisher was really threading a needle with this design, but with tubes still being plentiful at the time, yet the end of the tube age in sight, it was the decision made.

If you up the voltage across the heater string even more then to improve the warmup time or operating characteristics, it simply cooks the output tubes even more. At 10.5 volts a piece for the 12AX7s however, weak tubes that would otherwise still perform well at rated heater voltage, may have problems as Larry noted. Typically, about 11.0-11.5 volts for 12AX7s produces a very good compromise between warmup time, good performance with a wide range of tubes, and low noise.

Now making the bias circuit adjustable as was done in the X-100B will certainly address the making-the-bias-adjustable part of the issue. But the tubes still cook.

I addressed the ultimate answer to all of this in an old thread of mine here:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/kx-100-fishers-intro-stratakit.673654/

While the modifications address all of the issues, and adds some significant muscle along the way, it also requires a significant amount of work. Short of that, you can adjust the compromises made to potentially help the issue.

The 560Ω resistor is the real issue here -- but its required because the output stages increase their current draw rather quickly with increasing power output. The resistance of the12AX7 heaters on the other hand goes up in value as the current flow through them increase -- working backwards against the needs of the output tubes which are trying to draw more current to produce the increased power. So, the resistor works to keep the voltage across the tube heaters somewhat constant in spite of increasing current draw -- so that the output tubes can then draw the current they need. But the current flow of the required resistor, and that of the heaters, makes the quiescent current through the output tubes too great. The resistor can be adjusted somewhat, but not too much or the voltage across the 12AX7 heaters will soar with increasing power output. If normal use will only require no more than 5 watts or so per channel, then you might try this:

Increase the 560Ω resistor to 1.5K at 10W, and then bias the output tubes to 44 vdc. This will reduce the output tube dissipation to about 80% of rating, and slightly up the heater voltage to each 12AX7. It will do so however at the expense of maximum power output, since the heater voltage to the 12AX7s now has poorer regulation with the increased fixed resistance value.

As I said, the real answer is to execute the modifications of the thread above. However, increasing the fixed resistance and making the bias adjustable may be a workable compromise as well -- as long as you understand the consequences of the trade offs being made.

I hope this helps!

Dave
 
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Dave,

Of course that helps. I've accumulated a lot of reading that I need to catch up on today. Thanks Larry. Thanks Dave.
 
Let me ask a question of Dave a minute. I presume these mods to the KX-100 would also work on the X101-B (which already has the 7591's).

I just wonder how much different the 101-B is from the KX-100. It's got the usual stuff, Stereo Dimension and such.

x-101-B output.jpg
 
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Let me ask a question of Dave a minute. I presume these mods to the KX-100 would also work on the X101-B (which already has the 7591's).

I just wonder how much different the 101-B is from the KX-100. It's got the usual stuff, Stereo Dimension and such.

View attachment 919690

Larry,

The KX-100 and X-100-B are nearly the same amp and the diagrams I have for both say 7868 output. I've been highlighting really minor differences along the way as I compare the diagrams, but side-by-side most would have trouble telling them apart either from the outside or from the inside. The dead give away is the bias pot on the chassis for the X-100-B where there is a blind plug for the hole where that pot would go on the KX-100.

Edit: Oops you were talking about the 101 though weren't you. My bad.
 
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I was referring to my X-101-B. It's got 7591's in it already, so that part is already done. Then need to do the general non efb mods. Solid State scares the hell out of me due to the algebraic math, as does tubes. I lock up when someone writes down something in ohms law in letters. I can't get my head wrapped around letters or their meaning. I used to be able to do 4 place multiplication and division when I was younger in my head. Now I'm lucky if I can do 2 places.
 
Larry -- you could make a huge improvement in the performance of your X-101B (or KX-100) by simply installing the little power supply I detail in my -101C thread. It powers the four 12AX7 heaters, and provides fixed bias operation for the output stage. Then, the whole cathode bias heater circuit just goes away. You don't have to install EFB(tm) to do that. You won't get the performance benefit of EFB, but you will still get a nice performance boost because with the cathodes operating a basically ground level then, there is more B+ voltage dropped across the tubes, so they can develop greater power output. With the fixed bias operation, the tubes can be dialed way back in terms of quiescent current draw allowing them to run cooler (in spite of the increased B+ across them), last longer, the power transformer runs cooler, and more power at less distortion is generated. EFB simply magnifies all of that to an even greater level. So you can still have a very worthwhile increase in performance by going half way between stock, and the modifications I did -- with no SS witchcraft involved, other than the diodes in the little power supply.

Dave
 
Thanks Dave. I'll start thinking on it, as soon as I get finished with the Early 400, and see what the hell is going on with the Eye tube on the Late Model 400. (Now no Mono response and 1/3-1/2 eye on strong signal).

Now back to your regularly scheduled KX-100 rehab.
 
Started stuffing the power supply caps. I used one of my wife's kitchen knifes when she wasn't looking. It worked pretty darn good and didn't leave horribly rough edges.

Here is the new C1 which is waiting to be installed and the cap epoxied in place.

IMG_2714.JPG

Here is the new C2 with 3 sections ready to be installed and have the cap epoxied back on.

IMG_2715.JPG

Here is the C3 waiting for the 47uF 500V cap to come (recommended by Larry).

IMG_2716.JPG
 
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