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Pickering brush conundrum?

C

Chuck awker

Active Member
So,I took the brush off my Pickering
XV15/625E,used a scale and set it to 1.5 gms,balanced,redo antiskate,everything is fine sounds great as it always did.
It was just harder to eyeball putting the needle down because my lighting is not the greatest and with the brush it was even more confusing seeing where the needle was.Oh,it's on a Pioneer PL518.
So the question is did I do things right and I want to know how you all feel about that because it looks alot cooler with the brush on.
 
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You did it right. One method is to set up everything to your needs w/o brush and put it on, not changing any settings. Stanton cantilevers are even harder to see as the brush is even a bit closer to the centerline
 
Chuck awker said:
. . . I want to know how you all feel about that because it looks a lot cooler with the brush on.
Click to expand...
I often used both Stanton and Pickering cartridges with the brushes removed, particularly after learning about Linn in the mid 1980's. Linn said, "Most record cleaning devices do more harm than good. The dust that inevitably collects on records is not harmful: it's on the surface, not in the grooves containing the signal. Attempts to remove the dust usually force the dust down into the grooves, where it does damage. The best method of cleaning records is to let the stylus remove the dust then clean it."

A stylus can't force dust lying on the surface of the record down into the grooves because the stylus's point of contact with the record is below the surface. A brush attempts to pick up dust from the surface as well as from in the grooves and, according to Linn, usually ends up pushing at least some dust that was lying harmlessly on the record surface down into the grooves where it can be impacted by the stylus as it plays. A stylus "cleans" the record in the sense that some of the dust on the record surface will cling to the stylus shank during play. For many years the only record cleaning I did was to give the stylus a couple of swipes with a dry brush or Linn's green sandpaper after each side of play.

Once used records became a significant part of how I obtained new music, I followed my Linn dealer's advice to get a Nitty Gritty record cleaner, which he had found to be safe and effective.
 
Coolhandjjl said:
You did it right. One method is to set up everything to your needs w/o brush and put it on, not changing any settings. Stanton cantilevers are even harder to see as the brush is even a bit closer to the centerline
Click to expand...
Stanton/Pickering also recommended increasing the antiskate when the brush is used. If the brush is re-attached and he's using 1.5 grams tracking force, it's worth at least experimenting with setting the antiskate as high as 2.5 on its scale.
 
Coolhandjjl said:
You did it right. One method is to set up everything to your needs w/o brush and put it on, not changing any settings. Stanton cantilevers are even harder to see as the brush is even a bit closer to the centerline
Click to expand...
Thanks,so putting back on requires no more settings,glad of that,
 
jrtrent said:
Stanton/Pickering also recommended increasing the antiskate when the brush is used. If the brush is re-attached and he's using 1.5 grams tracking force, it's worth at least experimenting with setting the antiskate as high as 2.5 on its scale.
Click to expand...
That's seems like alot but I will experiment
 
jrtrent said:
I often used both Stanton and Pickering cartridges with the brushes removed, particularly after learning about Linn in the mid 1980's. Linn said, "Most record cleaning devices do more harm than good. The dust that inevitably collects on records is not harmful: it's on the surface, not in the grooves containing the signal. Attempts to remove the dust usually force the dust down into the grooves, where it does damage. The best method of cleaning records is to let the stylus remove the dust then clean it."

A stylus can't force dust lying on the surface of the record down into the grooves because the stylus's point of contact with the record is below the surface. A brush attempts to pick up dust from the surface as well as from in the grooves and, according to Linn, usually ends up pushing at least some dust that was lying harmlessly on the record surface down into the grooves where it can be impacted by the stylus as it plays. A stylus "cleans" the record in the sense that some of the dust on the record surface will cling to the stylus shank during play. For many years the only record cleaning I did was to give the stylus a couple of swipes with a dry brush or Linn's green sandpaper after each side of play.

Once used records became a significant part of how I obtained new music, I followed my Linn dealer's advice to get a Nitty Gritty record cleaner, which he had found to be safe and effective.
Click to expand...
Thanks much for that info
 
jrtrent said:
Stanton/Pickering also recommended increasing the antiskate when the brush is used. If the brush is re-attached and he's using 1.5 grams tracking force, it's worth at least experimenting with setting the antiskate as high as 2.5 on its scale.
Click to expand...
While that may be true, recent recommendations from SoundSmith are to use less a/s than recommended. That’s the only reason I suggested leaving it alone.
 
Chuck awker said:
That's seems like alot but I will experiment
Click to expand...
I think the idea is that since the brush is tracking at 1 gram, and the stylus is tracking at 1.5 grams, then setting antiskate at 2.5 should be about right. Soundsmith, however, has reported that most antiskate devices are calibrated to give too much antiskate force, so a setting quite a bit less than 2.5 on the scale might work best.
 
Coolhandjjl said:
While that may be true, recent recommendations from SoundSmith are to use less a/s than recommended. That’s the only reason I suggested leaving it alone.
Click to expand...
You must have posted while I was slowly typing my reply to Chuck, and you make a good point. I should pay more attention when the little message comes up asking if I want to view new posts!
 
I never use the brushes on any of my Stanton or Pickering cartridges because when I was setting up CD-4, year ago, with a Stanton 780 or Pickering XUV-4500Q, I discovered they affected tracking. CD-4 is more critical than two channel but, if the brushes affect tracking with CD-4, they are affecting tracking with two channel, also, even if you can't hear it.

I just think the stylus tip is the only thing that should be contacting the record groove.

Doug
 
totem said:
Unless I missed something between the lines, putting the brush back on does require new adjustment of primary weight.
Click to expand...
No. If the cartridge without brush is zero-balanced and set to the correct tracking force (or just set to the correct tracking force with a scale), no tracking force adjustment is needed if the brush is put back on; this is because the brush is self-supporting.

If the arm were zero-balanced with the brush in place, then the counterweight would be farther back on its shaft to balance the weight of the brush; that's why you then need to add 1 gram of vtf, to offset the fact that the counterweight is farther back than just the cartridge itself would have needed. If the arm is zero-balanced with the brush off, then the counterweight is a little farther forward because that extra weight of the brush isn't affecting the balance of the arm, and the brush can be attached, supporting itself, and no adjustment to tracking force is needed.
 
jrtrent said:
No. If the cartridge without brush is zero-balanced and set to the correct tracking force (or just set to the correct tracking force with a scale), no tracking force adjustment is needed if the brush is put back on; this is because the brush is self-supporting.

If the arm were zero-balanced with the brush in place, then the counterweight would be farther back on its shaft to balance the weight of the brush; that's why you then need to add 1 gram of vtf, to offset the fact that the counterweight is farther back than just the cartridge itself would have needed. If the arm is zero-balanced with the brush off, then the counterweight is a little farther forward because that extra weight of the brush isn't affecting the balance of the arm, and the brush can be attached, supporting itself, and no adjustment to tracking force is needed.
Click to expand...
Makes sense
 
I had my brush on and was using a digital scale to set VTF to 2.25g.

I decided to take the brush off, and yes, no tracking force adjustment was needed. (Just to verify, I got out my scale and it now reads 1.25g)

But man, does my Stanton 881 look weird now….. almost like something’s missing :biggrin:
 
jrtrent said:
No. If the cartridge without brush is zero-balanced and set to the correct tracking force (or just set to the correct tracking force with a scale), no tracking force adjustment is needed if the brush is put back on; this is because the brush is self-supporting.

If the arm were zero-balanced with the brush in place, then the counterweight would be farther back on its shaft to balance the weight of the brush; that's why you then need to add 1 gram of vtf, to offset the fact that the counterweight is farther back than just the cartridge itself would have needed. If the arm is zero-balanced with the brush off, then the counterweight is a little farther forward because that extra weight of the brush isn't affecting the balance of the arm, and the brush can be attached, supporting itself, and no adjustment to tracking force is needed.
Click to expand...

OK. reconsidering.

Doug
 
Coolhandjjl said:
I had my brush on and was using a digital scale to set VTF to 2.25g.

I decided to take the brush off, and yes, no tracking force adjustment was needed. (Just to verify, I got out my scale and it now reads 1.25g)

But man, does my Stanton 881 look weird now….. almost like something’s missing :biggrin:
Click to expand...
Yeah,I think I may put mine back on.....just to stay classic and original
 
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