Pioneer HPM-100 successful crossover mod!

[karik57]

That Marantz receiver looks cool.

 

[z-adamson]

I have followed this thread for several years and I am a bit confused on the listening experience which seems to differ from mine. I love my HPM-100's 200watt version and I never found the mid's or highs too forward...Only the somewhat boomy bass. In fact, I felt I needed more High and Mid;s ..something was missing..I even bought all the parts to redo the crossovers (modify not build new) but have not been able to get myself to dare it (and hey, I restore amps so this should be cake, right?) . So what did I do.
STACK. I have the HPM 100's on the floor and on top of each, a JBL stage 530 and run all 4....The sound is amazing. It delivers what I felt was missing. Now most of you will say I am crazy. I prefer to think maybe my hearing is skewed (lol) but others have heard it also. I will let them listen then turn off remote, vice versa, turn off main. Individual pairs, okay. But the 4 ? ANyway, if anyone builds pop in crossovers so I dont destroy mine, happy to try them ..my garage rig

View attachment 3161799

For starters, that looks like enough comb filtering to part my hair right down the middle. Secondly, the response of the hpm100 with the mv crossover is much more refined. The original design has a very sloppy response in the mode and highs.

 

[z-adamson]

Not even the MV Audio Labs?? Quite few Happy Listeners from that one!

I don’t understand what specifically you are asking me.

 

[z-adamson]

I’m doing this too my pair right now. What happens to the Super Tweeter?? I know most can’t hear it, but I actually can (easier to hear with all other speakers off). Is it not used just as the Potentiometers? Thanks!

If you look at the mv site, there are provisions to allow you to keep the pots. However, he advises against it as they are not needed and they just add distortion. As for the super tweeter, that can be kept too. Look at the schematic, insert the super tweeter components.

Seems pretty unlikely you can actually hear it. You may think you can hear it, but I have my doubts.

 

[Houdini212]

Very easy to hear it by itself, it is not a dog whistle, unless you have bad hearing and you can't hear high frequency anymore.
It plays at a high frequency, low volume. Hearing it while the other drivers are playing it is a totally different story.

If you look at the mv site, there are provisions to allow you to keep the pots. However, he advises against it as they are not needed and they just add distortion. As for the super tweeter, that can be kept too. Look at the schematic, insert the super tweeter components.

Seems pretty unlikely you can actually hear it. You may think you can hear it, but I have my doubts.

 

[z-adamson]

Very easy to hear it by itself, it is not a dog whistle, unless you have bad hearing and you can't hear high frequency anymore.
It plays at a high frequency, low volume. Hearing it while the other drivers are playing it is a totally different story.

The guy I was quoting suggested he could hear it with the other drivers playing and I was saying how unlikely that is.

 

[Dave1027]

The stock response of the HPM-100 is erratic. This guy does a fantastic job flattening it out but the cost is super expensive. Not sure it's worth this.

 

[dingo1670]

If you look at the mv site, there are provisions to allow you to keep the pots. However, he advises against it as they are not needed and they just add distortion. As for the super tweeter, that can be kept too. Look at the schematic, insert the super tweeter components.

Seems pretty unlikely you can actually hear it. You may think you can hear it, but I have my doubts.

Yes I was considering that, but I think I’ll build them as he intended and give them a whirl. I’ll keep the stock X-Overs in there to compare.

 

[arcorob]

For starters, that looks like enough comb filtering to part my hair right down the middle.

I didn't understand that part at all - do you mean this ? Comb filtering is a phenomenon that happens when the same sound arrives at the listener’s ears (or a microphone) at different times with a very small delay between the signals.
That could occur at any level from 2 speakers on up...unless you were precisely at the apex of the two, any offset would create that ..so not sure the relevance ?

 

[z-adamson]

I didn't understand that part at all - do you mean this ? Comb filtering is a phenomenon that happens when the same sound arrives at the listener’s ears (or a microphone) at different times with a very small delay between the signals.
That could occur at any level from 2 speakers on up...unless you were precisely at the apex of the two, any offset would create that ..so not sure the relevance ?

The tweeter in the JBL and the tweeter in the hpm are playing the same high frequencies and the are a ways apart. They are pointed in the same direction thus same coverage area. Since the frequencies are directional and the tweeters are a ways apart, the sound will get to the listeners ear at very different times thus major comb filtering going on here.

This does NOT happen with “2 speakers on up”. Non directional frequencies do not do this, so not an issue with subwoofers for instance. The more directional, the bigger an issue. The higher the frequency, the more directional. So tweeters are the biggest issue here. Or a mid and tweeter in the same cabinet is not an issue because they are playing different frequencies, or “different sound”.

 

[arcorob]

The tweeter in the JBL and the tweeter in the hpm are playing the same high frequencies and the are a ways apart. They are pointed in the same direction thus same coverage area. Since the frequencies are directional and the tweeters are a ways apart, the sound will get to the listeners ear at very different times thus major comb filtering going on here.

This does NOT happen with “2 speakers on up”. Non directional frequencies do not do this, so not an issue with subwoofers for instance. The more directional, the bigger an issue. The higher the frequency, the more directional. So tweeters are the biggest issue here. Or a mid and tweeter in the same cabinet is not an issue because they are playing different frequencies, or “different sound”.

I am not going to bluntly disagree ..but I don't agree in this instance - since they are atop the Pioneers, the micro/nanosecond difference is not detectable except perhaps by extensive equipment - but to my ears, the sound is vastly improved. and the range and type of tweeters are different so not necessarily playing the EXACT same high frequencies ...Now I could spend the 900 bucks for the crossovers mentioned earlier but then I had to sit on my hands (or is it my wallet?) and say "its my damn garage work area - not a dedicated listening room" I have 7 systems throughout the house and cottage. If I go that crazy for the garage, think about what I would have to do ? Where would it end ? OMG if my wife knew what I spend...LOL... Thanks for explaining btw...I learned something new

 

[z-adamson]

and the range and type of tweeters are different so not necessarily playing the EXACT same high frequencies

I guarantee you that the tweeter in the JBL reproduces all information above 5000hz and likely far below that. I guarantee you the tweeter in the hpm covers all information above 5000hz and likely below that too.

So we have at least 5000hz to 20,000hz coverage coming from 2 tweeters that are physically quite a ways apart and pointed in the same physical direction. This is the perfect recipe for comb filtering.

 

[arcorob]

I guarantee you that the tweeter in the JBL reproduces all information above 5000hz and likely far below that. I guarantee you the tweeter in the hpm covers all information above 5000hz and likely below that too.

So we have at least 5000hz to 20,000hz coverage coming from 2 tweeters that are physically quite a ways apart and pointed in the same physical direction. This is the perfect recipe for comb filtering.

I accept your guarantee 100%. I accept that it can be measured ..so can atoms. The question is do we see them (or hear them). My opinion only, but the measurable factor doesn.t mean it is distinctly detectible to the human ear (especially to 64 year old human ears). There are so many other factors that can have a more detrimental and audible effect. If your speakers are out of phase, you will notice. Room dynamics and bounce. Speakers on the floor vs ear level. Some folks invert HPM-100's ( I would try it but at about 57 lbs apiece, I am not that into trying..lol). Please understand, I am not discounting what you are saying. After we typed, I researched comb filtering. I get it. But if it was a factor then 5.1 systems would have the same effect due to placement and time delay. I am just saying, let the listener decide. I like my 4 speaker setup, I feel what I did added value and thats all that really counts even if a meter would say "oh thats' not cohesive". I have some pretty discerning ears but do not have the range of my son who can hear ultra sonic mouse deterrents. Hurts his ears. I say "OMG ..you can hear that ?"

 

[arcorob]

I guarantee you that the tweeter in the JBL reproduces all information above 5000hz and likely far below that. I guarantee you the tweeter in the hpm covers all information above 5000hz and likely below that too.

So we have at least 5000hz to 20,000hz coverage coming from 2 tweeters that are physically quite a ways apart and pointed in the same physical direction. This is the perfect recipe for comb filtering.

Hey quick question...are you the guy from GR-Research channel ? If so that would explain your detailed knowledge

 

[z-adamson]

Hey quick question...are you the guy from GR-Research channel ? If so that would explain your detailed knowledge

Nope!

 

[Anse]

What you think, does that MV Audio labs crossover works fine on hpm 70 also or are those speakers that much different? I have been thinking recapping my hpm's but why not do some uprgrade also at same.

 

[dcgibby]

What you think, does that MV Audio labs crossover works fine on hpm 70 also or are those speakers that much different? I have been thinking recapping my hpm's but why not do some uprgrade also at same.

I'd be hesitant. The MV labs kit is tuned for the 12" woofer on the HPM 100. It may not work the same for the 10" woofer on the HPM 70.