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Pioneer SX-1250 and multiple amps... "in through the out door"... please help!

Jim_76shovel

Jim_76shovel

New Member
Hello, so.... before I set the smoke detectors off and will my beloved Pioneer equipment to the next victim, I will simply lower my head and humbly ask for some help. My current situation is as follows: 1 SX-1250, 1 SA-9100, and 1 -SA-5500, 1 CT-F9191 Cassette, 1 PL15D TT, and currently negotiating a M-25 Class A/B Amp.... (God... please I only looked at my wife's friend twice last year).... my speakers are as follows: HPM 100's, 60's, 40's, 1100's and CV VS-120's. Simply for more speaker room I would like to add the above amp(s). Lets start with the SA-9100 and leave the M-25 in dreamland for the moment.... I sincerely apologize for being long-winded but what I would like to know is do I need a crossover network? or.... may I use the SA-9100 as is? I think I can go from there with a bit of hand holding and direction if someone wouldn't mind the journey (fine print here)... when I think about it all I think about is 160W vs. 75W and out of the beast into the poor little guy with the lovely walnut veneer... and I start to twitch and smell smoke... Any help, direction, hate mail, name calling (other than industrial strength stupid), will be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much. Jim
 
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From what I am gathering you wanted to use the SA 9100 to connect and use all your speakers at the same time? I that is the case that will smoke your amp or ruin your speakers. You might need to build a speaker selector so you can only play 2 sets of speakers at time.
What you can do is also use Y-connectors at the pre-outs of the SA 9100 to connect to the SX 1250's tape loop (IIRC) and from the SX 1250 you can connect 2 to 3 more sets of speakers but I think you can only play 2 speaker sets at a time, that feature is to protect the amp.
 
Spe@kerBox said:
Are you you asking if the 9100 will drive your speakers? If so, the xover should be built into them. The question may need some clarification.
Click to expand...
Indeed the 9100 will handle 2 sets but I wanted more power and essentially more speaker connections. I am definitely looking for clarification. Thanks so much .
 
jojo0416 said:
From what I am gathering you wanted to use the SA 9100 to connect and use all your speakers at the same time? I that is the case that will smoke your amp or ruin your speakers. You might need to build a speaker selector so you can only play 2 sets of speakers at time.
What you can do is also use Y-connectors at the pre-outs of the SA 9100 to connect to the SX 1250's tape loop (IIRC) and from the SX 1250 you can connect 2 to 3 more sets of speakers but I think you can only play 2 speaker sets at a time, that feature is to protect the amp.
Click to expand...
Yes it it my understanding that I could utilize the preamp out on the 1250 and into the the 9100.... however I wanted to make sure I connected the ins and outs correctly... This would bypass the amp in the 1250 utilizing the preamp only, and share speaker space between the 2 units?????? I have heard of utilizing the tape loop to accomplish this but sadly admit knowing absolutely nothing about this...
 
Nice Shovel, I have a '75 FXE with custom Fatbobs and an '80 FXEF.
To use the pre-amp section of the SX-1250 as your primary input selector, while still using its power amp for 1 or 2 sets of speakers AND have another 1 or 2 sets of speakers connected to the SA9100 you need pair of RCA Y cables/adapters. Here's how to do it:
Remove the jumpers from the pre-out and power-in jacks on the back of the SX-1250, connect one of the Y cables to the left pre-out, and the second plug of same Y to the left power-in of the SX-1250. This keeps the SX-1250 functioning as normal. Connect the third Y connection plug to the left Aux input of the SA9100. This sends whatever input signal you have selected on the SX-1250 to the SA-9100 when you select AUX on the SA-9100. Follow the same instructions but change 'left' to 'right' for the other channel. This keeps the SA-9100 tone, loudness, balance and volume controls available (only) for the speakers connected to the SA-9100. With this setup the SX-1250 tone, loudness, balance and volume controls work for BOTH amplifiers. To only listen to speakers connected to the SX-1250 leave the SA9100 power off. To listen only to speakers connected to the SA-9100 set the SX-1250 A, B and C speaker selector buttons disengaged. When running both amps at the same time the volume on the SA-9100 can be used to 'match' the volume level of it speakers to the volume of the SX-1250 speakers volume (within limits of its power output). Unless you are trying to bi-amp or tri-amp your speakers, or drive a subwoofer with the SA-9100, no crossover is needed. Using the tape outputs from the SX-1250 eliminates the ability to control the signal level to the SA-9100 with the SX-1250 volume control.
With this setup you can also connect a tape deck, tuner or turntable to the SA-9100 and play them (only) from the SA-9100 speakers. This setup also works great for putting a set of speakers in another room connected to the SA-9100 to play from it.

FWIW, One more thing to note: both the SX-1250 and the SA-9100 have connections for three sets of speakers, but will only allow two pair from each amp to be active at the same time. You may already know this, I just wanted to be sure. Potentially you can have 6 pairs connected and play any 4 at the same time, (depending on speaker impedance).

Here is a picture of a cable that would work:
61G7rjE14VL._SL1500_.jpg
Photo from: https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-1-Male-2-Male-Audio-Cable/dp/B01D5H8N8K/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2FUDRHG1PQT9N&keywords=rca+y+cable+male+to+2+male&qid=1565982306&s=gateway&sprefix=rca+y+cable+male,aps,223&sr=8-3
(no affiliation)
You would need two of these, I would connect white to the pre-out, red to the power-in of the SX-1250 and purple to the SA-9100 AUX input, keeping left to left on one cable and right to right on the other cable.
I have done it exactly this way with an SX-1050 and an SX-780, works like a charm.
Sorry if that is too much info, I was on a roll :rolleyes:.
 
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Spe@kerBox said:
The 1250 has more than twice the power of the 9100 anyway. I would just connect three sets of speakers to that and be happy. I have a 1250 and they sound very good. But as @jojo0416 says only two sets will play at a time.
Click to expand...
Thank you. I fully understand the 1250 is more powerful, but I am not trying to just run the 9100 by itself, nor am I satisfied with two sets of speakers. Both the 1250 and 9100 have pre out and power in RCA connections for adding and amplifier or amplifiers..... I believe this is called bridging an amp. Being that the 1250 and 9100 (which is integrated) have pre power in and out connections I am guessing that there is a built in crossover in one or both... What I am not understanding is the following:... I can have more speaker connections with say a protected speaker selector... (I have a Pyle, 8 channel. However, it is only a 100W) The 1250 is 160 active watts... definitely a candidate for melting all kinds of stuff... The protection circuits in the 1250 allow 3 sets of speakers... BUT it is for speakers under 8 ohms... the 9100 has just A&B... on the 1250 you can utilize A&B or A&C but not all 3... I am wondering by bridging the 1250 and 9100 together can I utilize both sets of speaker banks to work together... and if so, HOW? LOL Thanks so much for your time. Jim
 
merlynski said:
Nice Shovel, I have a '75 FXE with custom Fatbobs and an '80 FXEF.
To use the pre-amp section of the SX-1250 as your primary input selector, while still using its power amp for 1 or 2 sets of speakers AND have another 1 or 2 sets of speakers connected to the SA9100 you need pair of RCA Y cables/adapters. Here's how to do it:
Remove the jumpers from the pre-out and power-in jacks on the back of the SX-1250, connect one of the Y cables to the left pre-out, and the second plug of same Y to the left power-in of the SX-1250. This keeps the SX-1250 functioning as normal. Connect the third Y connection plug to the left Aux input of the SA9100. This sends whatever input signal you have selected on the SX-1250 to the SA-9100 when you select AUX on the SA-9100. Follow the same instructions but change 'left' to 'right' for the other channel. This keeps the SA-9100 tone, loudness, balance and volume controls available (only) for the speakers connected to the SA-9100. With this setup the SX-1250 tone, loudness, balance and volume controls work for BOTH amplifiers. To only listen to speakers connected to the SX-1250 leave the SA9100 power off. To listen only to speakers connected to the SA-9100 set the SX-1250 A, B and C speaker selector buttons disengaged. When running both amps at the same time the volume on the SA-9100 can be used to 'match' the volume level of it speakers to the volume of the SX-1250 speakers volume (within limits of its power output). Unless you are trying to bi-amp or tri-amp your speakers, or drive a subwoofer with the SA-9100, no crossover is needed. Using the tape outputs from the SX-1250 eliminates the ability to control the signal level to the SA-9100 with the SX-1250 volume control.
With this setup you can also connect a tape deck, tuner or turntable to the SA-9100 and play them (only) from the SA-9100 speakers. This setup also works great for putting a set of speakers in another room connected to the SA-9100 to play from it.

FWIW, One more thing to note: both the SX-1250 and the SA-9100 have connections for three sets of speakers, but will only allow two pair from each amp to be active at the same time. You may already know this, I just wanted to be sure. Potentially you can have 6 pairs connected and play any 4 at the same time, (depending on speaker impedance).

Here is a picture of a cable that would work:
View attachment 1591968
Photo from: https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-1-Male-2-Male-Audio-Cable/dp/B01D5H8N8K/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2FUDRHG1PQT9N&keywords=rca+y+cable+male+to+2+male&qid=1565982306&s=gateway&sprefix=rca+y+cable+male,aps,223&sr=8-3
(no affiliation)
You would need two of these, I would connect white to the pre-out, red to the power-in of the SX-1250 and purple to the SA-9100 AUX input, keeping left to left on one cable and right to right or the other cable.
I have done it exactly this way with an SX-1050 and an SX-780, works like a charm.
Sorry if that is too much info, I was on a roll :rolleyes:.
Click to expand...
BINGO!!!! Thanks so much man!!! This is what I am looking for, and thank you for the link as well!! I knew there was a Electric start Shovelhead owner in between these pages somewhere that would understand us Kickstart Only guys!!! LMFAO!! Life is funny sometimes... Due to news from the doctor that I needed double hip replacement (about 2 months ago) and my inability to kick over the pig that she is (103" Stroker) this year brought me to my second love (Vintage Pioneer gear) So here I is... hopefully this blueprint will feed part of my addiction... LOL. I may ask a few questions if you don't mind along the way? Thanks so much again, and the pleasure is all mine. Keep the rubber side down... ;) Jim
 
Jim_76shovel said:
Indeed the 9100 will handle 2 sets but I wanted more power and essentially more speaker connections. I am definitely looking for clarification. Thanks so much .
Click to expand...

As Spe@kerBox mentioned the SX 1250 has more power, so I will do the connection below (The SX 1250 is the main and SA 9100 as bi-amp I apologize for the drawing by the way) not the best but I hope you get the idea. My basement is being reno'ed all my stuff are disconnected and therefore I am not able to take pictures and already forgot how I did this in the past.
I assume you you know of speaker polarities "+" and "-" we do not want these wires interchanged/short circuited and RCA Red (for Right) and White (Left) - The RCA transmit signals only so I do not see any connection risk as long as it is RCA to RCA.

This can only play 4 speakers at the same time. The SX 1250 setup of course will work.
The 1250 feeds the 9100 in playing set the 1250 volume to minimum, 9100 around 10 o'clock (I will not go past 12 o'clock),
Switch tape monitor to either 1 or 2 wherever you plugged the RCA rec in in the back of the amp
(Note if you cannot control the volume this way turn off 1250 and have the RCA connection 1250 pre-out to Rec in of 9100)

In the 2nd option, as if you will be using 2 pre-amps of 1250 and 9100 because the signal goes into the aux in of the 9100 similar to connecting an ordinary playback source. I hope I did not confuse you but maybe others can guide you too.
 

Attachments

jojo0416 said:
As Spe@kerBox mentioned the SX 1250 has more power, so I will do the connection below (The SX 1250 is the main and SA 9100 as bi-amp I apologize for the drawing by the way) not the best but I hope you get the idea. My basement is being reno'ed all my stuff are disconnected and therefore I am not able to take pictures and already forgot how I did this in the past.
I assume you you know of speaker polarities "+" and "-" we do not want these wires interchanged/short circuited and RCA Red (for Right) and White (Left) - The RCA transmit signals only so I do not see any connection risk as long as it is RCA to RCA.

This can only play 4 speakers at the same time. The SX 1250 setup of course will work.
The 1250 feeds the 9100 in playing set the 1250 volume to minimum, 9100 around 10 o'clock (I will not go past 12 o'clock),
Switch tape monitor to either 1 or 2 wherever you plugged the RCA rec in in the back of the amp
(Note if you cannot control the volume this way turn off 1250 and have the RCA connection 1250 pre-out to Rec in of 9100)

In the 2nd option, as if you will be using 2 pre-amps of 1250 and 9100 because the signal goes into the aux in of the 9100 similar to connecting an ordinary playback source. I hope I did not confuse you but maybe others can guide you too.
Click to expand...
Awesome!!! Thank you so much, your help is greatly appreciated... I may have a question or two for safety reasons (LOL) and I hope you wouldn't mind at a future date? I want to do this now lol, however I have a dinner to attend tonight... I can see me already at midnight.... Thank you in advance and I apologize for any confusion I may have caused in my original messages. Thank you again! Jim
 
merlynski said:
LOL, my '80 came electric only, but the first real mod I did (after pipes) was to put on a kicker!
Click to expand...
I fully understand!!! LOL Mine is a 76 FX Kick only and well.... I've had the bike since I was 18... finally last year I ditched the points and went to electronic ignition...
until then let me tell you... no fun getting caught on a compression stroke... in the past 2 years prior to the electronic ignition it caused a broken leg (3 places) and
4 broken ribs from kicking back on compression!! (None of my own blood spilled) At any rate she is a whore, but she is my whore and is now a one kick bike as long
as you know the directions.... lmao I miss the wind... and my knees in the breeze... I was hoping to be that guy in the chair listening to his speakers....:) Thank you again!
 
Jim_76shovel said:
Awesome!!! Thank you so much, your help is greatly appreciated... I may have a question or two for safety reasons (LOL) and I hope you wouldn't mind at a future date? I want to do this now lol, however I have a dinner to attend tonight... I can see me already at midnight.... Thank you in advance and I apologize for any confusion I may have caused in my original messages. Thank you again! Jim
Click to expand...

No worries, PM me anytime, I hope by that time all my system is up an running.
I had the same dilemma before, that way less hassle of disconnecting and reconnecting speakers and get to enjoy all of it.
 
Jim_76shovel said:
I fully understand!!! LOL Mine is a 76 FX Kick only and well.... I've had the bike since I was 18... finally last year I ditched the points and went to electronic ignition...
until then let me tell you... no fun getting caught on a compression stroke... in the past 2 years prior to the electronic ignition it caused a broken leg (3 places) and
4 broken ribs from kicking back on compression!! (None of my own blood spilled) At any rate she is a whore, but she is my whore and is now a one kick bike as long
as you know the directions.... lmao I miss the wind... and my knees in the breeze... I was hoping to be that guy in the chair listening to his speakers....:) Thank you again!
Click to expand...
The '75 is points, the '80 is the second generation HD electronic ignition ('79 was first), Three strokes to prime, set it up on compression, ignition on, 1 kick and its running. That was before a broken hip.
Post here any time, I will get a notification you did. :D
 
On the off-hand chance that you aren't aware, using multiple sets of speakers in one room at the same time will typically cause some unpleasant interaction between them resulting in some frequencies being enhanced and some being nulled. The wall of speakers idea doesn't really work well unless you sit in the same spot and have some form of time correction applied.

Also, your SX-1250 will not be happy playing two sets of 8 ohm speakers loudly. It is happy with an 8 ohm load per side. With a 4 ohm load (two sets of 8 ohm speakers), the protection circuitry will kill the fun before the party gets started, even though the receiver is technically rated to drive a 4 ohm load.

With the recommended cables above, you should be able to play 4 sets at a time, potentially with a single volume control, depending on if you use pre-out and main-in vs pre-out and tape-in.

My guess, from prior experience, is that the VS120s connected to the SX-1250 will probably play louder by themselves than you will care to listen, without the multi-speaker interaction.

As far as bridging, bridging refers to reversing the polarity of the input on one channel of the amp and using the left and right channel amplifiers to drive a single load with double the output voltage - which on an amp designed for it, effectively halves the impedance and quadruples the power output. The SX-1250 is a two-channel amp, but its power output into 4 ohms isn't much more than into 8 ohms. If it were bridgeable (which it isn't), it would be an unhappy single channel ~ 400 watt @ 8 ohm amp instead of a happy 2x160 watts at 8 ohms. On an amp designed for it, a 2x150 wpc @ 8 ohms (that is also rated for 300wpc @ 4 ohms) could bridge to 1x600 @ 8 ohms. Or if an amp is designed for low impedance operation and has a high current supply, a 2x150@8 ohm amp could potentially bridge to a 1x1,200 watt @ 4 ohm amp. But, in reality, they don't usually double twice, so it might end up being 1KW at 4 ohms.

I only know this stuff because I was where you are, and I damaged some nice gear during the learning process - before the internet existed to warn people of the potential dangers and interactions.
 
cbrworm said:
On the off-hand chance that you aren't aware, using multiple sets of speakers in one room at the same time will typically cause some unpleasant interaction between them resulting in some frequencies being enhanced and some being nulled. The wall of speakers idea doesn't really work well unless you sit in the same spot and have some form of time correction applied.

Also, your SX-1250 will not be happy playing two sets of 8 ohm speakers loudly. It is happy with an 8 ohm load per side. With a 4 ohm load (two sets of 8 ohm speakers), the protection circuitry will kill the fun before the party gets started, even though the receiver is technically rated to drive a 4 ohm load.

With the recommended cables above, you should be able to play 4 sets at a time, potentially with a single volume control, depending on if you use pre-out and main-in vs pre-out and tape-in.

My guess, from prior experience, is that the VS120s connected to the SX-1250 will probably play louder by themselves than you will care to listen, without the multi-speaker interaction.

As far as bridging, bridging refers to reversing the polarity of the input on one channel of the amp and using the left and right channel amplifiers to drive a single load with double the output voltage - which on an amp designed for it, effectively halves the impedance and quadruples the power output. The SX-1250 is a two-channel amp, but its power output into 4 ohms isn't much more than into 8 ohms. If it were bridgeable (which it isn't), it would be an unhappy single channel ~ 400 watt @ 8 ohm amp instead of a happy 2x160 watts at 8 ohms. On an amp designed for it, a 2x150 wpc @ 8 ohms (that is also rated for 300wpc @ 4 ohms) could bridge to 1x600 @ 8 ohms. Or if an amp is designed for low impedance operation and has a high current supply, a 2x150@8 ohm amp could potentially bridge to a 1x1,200 watt @ 4 ohm amp. But, in reality, they don't usually double twice, so it might end up being 1KW at 4 ohms.

I only know this stuff because I was where you are, and I damaged some nice gear during the learning process - before the internet existed to warn people of the potential dangers and interactions.
Click to expand...

BTDT :D
I agree with all these facts, it is exactly what went through my head when answering the OP, except, having never had an SX-1250, I cannot affirm or deny the opinion about the SX-1250 driving a 4Ω load. Some speakers are notorious for having low impedance places in their frequency vs. load response curves. I can easily imagine two pairs of speakers having a less than 4Ω parallel impedance at certain frequencies causing the protection circuit to activate. I have had as many as 6 pairs of speakers connected to my system, albeit in several different rooms, including my garage/mechanic area, and been very happy with the setup. I never drove all six at the same time. I did build a switcher that selected from three sets of speakers, in any combination, because I wanted the option. It had the speakers in the 'remote' rooms connected to it. I did add a series resistor to protect the amp from too low a load.
 
To connect multiple amp & speaker sets (one amp + 1 speaker per channel) get an A/V distribution amp (used to be cheap, now ? :dunno: )
run the preamp out to the distribution amp, and then take the outputs of the distribution amp to the various amps.
I would use the AUX inputs because then that amp with it's 2 speaker can be volume, balance & tone adjusted individually.

as for "bridging", unless the amp is MADE to do that (with SPECIFIC internal circuitry and external switch(es)) - don't even TRY DIY.
DIY power amp bridging can introduce quite a bit of extra distortion even if it doesn't puke it's guts out.
 
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