Playing both 33/45 and 78 on a Dual 1019?

[Luthien]

Hi,

I recently found a couple of nice 78 records which got me wondering if I could improve my set-up a bit. It’s “coals to Newcastle” to mention here, but even apart from the sound, there’s a charm to playing records that transcends anything a cd can offer, let alone Spotify or what have you.

I’ve always felt that 78rpm records take the magic even further - as Dutch author Kees van Kooten wrote about playing Louis Armstrong’s Basin street blues to his son:

“It’s too bad that I don’t have it on a 78 record any longer and that speed has disappeared from my record player, because then I could also have demonstrated what speed means in music, as opposed to tempo.”​

I have a Philips 677 to play singles and LPs, and a Dual 1209 with a ceramic cartridge and a sapphire stylus to play 78rpm records.
The Philips works and sounds fine, but the Dual had a broken arm-support when I found it on a “Queen’s birthday” garage sale.
It will play records, but the automatic shut-off is a bit random and the sound is a bit tinny - that may be because it uses the “tape in” which I understand doesn’t apply RIAA correction.

I wondered therefore if I could replace those two with one turntable that can play them all without sounding tinny, and no more
awkward fiddling with impossible-to-reach plugs in the dusty tangle of wires behind the amplifier?

Looking around on forums like this I found that Dual 1019, 2019 or 2029 might be the best to look for because they’re great quality and they can play 78 rpm records.
I’ve found a Dual 1019 with a Goldring G-800 cartridge for a good price. I’ll go and take a look at it in a few days and hopefully take it home with me.

But if I were to use just the 1019, is it possible to set it up so that it can actually play all formats?
I looked for a 3mil N stylus (Tonar 352 DN) that would fit that Goldring cartridge and I thought I found it yesterday morning on a Dutch web-shop. I ordered it, but within the hour the owner called me to apoligise: he didn’t have the stylus in stock after all and it might be months before it was available again - if ever.

He also warned me that the 1019 idler wheel would be a risk and possibly hard to replace, but from what I read about that, I don’t think I need to worry too much about that.

But finding that Tonar 352 DN stylus might be an issue. I haven’t found it available anywhere else, and no other N stylus that would fit this cartridge either.

I’m trying to find out what my options are: maybe find another cartridge to use with the 1019?
Is there one that would work with both 33/45 and 78 records, and would it require swapping out the stylus every time I want to play a 78 disc? Or are there decent flip-stylus cartridges (non ceramic) that would fit?

Another option would be to have another cartridge specific for 78 discs, but if I understood it right this would require having another “headshell sled”, and that seems be a whole can of worms all by itself.

So I’m really unsure how to proceed here.


Any suggestion to the best way forward would be great. Thanks

 

[Montycat]

I'd suggest getting a cartridge for which you can insert a 78 stylus at will. I have a Shure M91 with both a standard 33/45 stylus and one for 78. I would still have to increase tracking force but that's all.

 

[62vauxhall]

In agreement with Montycat. The cartridge I'm using for that purpose is a Stanton V - a 500 variant. I track the stock D5 stylus for LP's & 45's at 3 grams and the Pfanstiehl D5127 for 78's at 4 grams.

No adjusting of counter weight required. Just boost or cut the tracking force as needed.

 

[malden]

Yes, you can use the 1019 for 33/45 & 78, you just need to choose the right cartridge that will accept both types of styli.

Those of us who have been into vinyl for decades have cartridges like the Shure M44, M75 or M91 which will accept standard styli for 33/45's as well as 78 rpm. The days of finding them easily are gone so I would suggest getting a current production cartridge that can accept both types of styli...

cartridge for 33/45

AT-VM95C

This VM95 Series cartridge with 0.6 mil conical stylus fits half-inch mount turntables. The cartridge’s special coil design delivers a powerful output level of 4.0 mV. It also offers excelle ...

www.audio-technica.com

stylus for 78

AT-VMN95SP

3.0 mil conical replacement stylus for these cartridges: AT-VM95SP

www.audio-technica.com

 

[kwayde]

Seeing your title had me think of this:

 

[Hajidub]

Highly recommend getting a cheap phono preamp between your Dual and tape input on your receiver/amp.

 

[petehall347]

i like a proper wind up player for 78.s with a speed adjuster .

 

[tourmax]

Just get a second sled with the cart of your choice.

Duals change sleds (ie:carts) with a simple lever pull.

The cartridge is mounted in the sled, the entire sled is changed with the lever.

A simple tracking weight adjustment (Duals are set by a dial which adjusts weight/force by a small coil spring) and you’re good to go.

With two sleds, you don’t have to compromise on the cart/stylus for either format. Your 78 and your 33/45 cart/stylus can be as high (or low) quality as you like (or can afford).

i don’t have 78’s, but I swap carts around in my Duals whenever I feel like it. Takes about 20 seconds, including resetting the track weight by a small stylus scale.

 

[mrehorst]

i like a proper wind up player for 78.s with a speed adjuster .

There's at least two types of 78s- electrical and mechanical. The stuff that was around for Victrolas in the 20s and into the 30s were mechanical where you used a steel needle or cactus spine to play the disc and changed it with each play. Amplification was acoustical- i.e. horn. The discs had abrasives in the first few grooves to shape the needle to match the record. The electrical 78's that came out in later years- late 30s (?), 40s, and 50s would be destroyed by playing them with a steel needle (and maybe even a cactus spine). Those discs were played with a ceramic cartridge and electrical amplification. I assume the tip was either sapphire or diamond. Playing the mechanical 78's on electrical 78 player would probably wreck the stylus and maybe the disc, too, or at least cause excessive wear and probably wouldn't sound very good.

I believe the mechanical 78s had the music etched vertically into the disc and the electrical 78s were horizontal, though I could be wrong.

Never mind, I just looked at a couple under a microscope. Both types appear to be horizontally recorded. I think the Edison diamond discs were vertical. The mechanical 78s were about 12" diameter and the electrical ones were 10".

 

[petehall347]

There's at least two types of 78s- electrical and mechanical. The stuff that was around for Victrolas in the 20s and into the 30s were mechanical where you used a steel needle or cactus spine to play the disc and changed it with each play. Amplification was acoustical- i.e. horn. The discs had abrasives in the first few grooves to shape the needle to match the record. The electrical 78's that came out in later years- late 30s (?), 40s, and 50s would be destroyed by playing them with a steel needle (and maybe even a cactus spine). Those discs were played with a ceramic cartridge and electrical amplification. I assume the tip was either sapphire or diamond. Playing the mechanical 78's on electrical 78 player would probably wreck the stylus and maybe the disc, too, or at least cause excessive wear and probably wouldn't sound very good.

I believe the mechanical 78s had the music etched vertically into the disc and the electrical 78s were horizontal, though I could be wrong.

i do have one that's both .it turns with electric but mechanical pick up .

 

[mrehorst]

Yeah, once people started getting electricity in their homes they started putting electric motors into record players (and radios started getting power supplies instead of batteries), but they still used mechanical/acoustic playback for quite a while before they started building amplifiers into record players. It's the method of playback, not the method of spinning the disc that matters.

 

[Luthien]

Just get a second sled with the cart of your choice.
Duals change sleds (ie:carts) with a simple lever pull.
The cartridge is mounted in the sled, the entire sled is changed with the lever.

Hi tourmax,

Thanks - I agree that would be the best solution. The 1209 also has a sled like that, so that was my first thought, and I looked where to find one of those.

But that’s where I ran into that can of worms I mentioned. I admit that I only searched for some time in the past few days, but that left me with the impression that these sleds have been very much “wanted, dead or alive” for some time, driving up the price to nearly that of the turntable itself. Several people even got to 3D-print them, not sure how well that worked.

But whatever has changed, I don’t know, but I couldn’t find a single one still available, not even at that elevated price.

With two sleds, you don’t have to compromise on the cart/stylus for either format. Your 78 and your 33/45 cart/stylus can be as high (or low) quality as you like (or can afford).

i don’t have 78’s, but I swap carts around in my Duals whenever I feel like it. Takes about 20 seconds, including resetting the track weight by a small stylus scale.

Exactly, yes. I just hope I overlooked something, because this really is the best solution.

If you (or anyone else) knows more about those sleds (or have one for sale!) that would be super.

 

[Luthien]

I'd suggest getting a cartridge for which you can insert a 78 stylus at will. I have a Shure M91 with both a standard 33/45 stylus and one for 78. I would still have to increase tracking force but that's all.

In agreement with Montycat. The cartridge I'm using for that purpose is a Stanton V - a 500 variant. I track the stock D5 stylus for LP's & 45's at 3 grams and the Pfanstiehl D5127 for 78's at 4 grams.

Yes, you can use the 1019 for 33/45 & 78, you just need to choose the right cartridge that will accept both types of styli (…) I suggest getting a current production cartridge that can accept both types of styli...

Thank you! I’ll look into the cartridges / styli mentioned there !

 

[Luthien]

There's at least two types of 78s- electrical and mechanical. The stuff that was around for Victrolas in the 20s and into the 30s were mechanical where you used a steel needle or cactus spine to play the disc and changed it with each play. Amplification was acoustical- i.e. horn. The discs had abrasives in the first few grooves to shape the needle to match the record. The electrical 78's that came out in later years- late 30s (?), 40s, and 50s would be destroyed by playing them with a steel needle (and maybe even a cactus spine). Those discs were played with a ceramic cartridge and electrical amplification. I assume the tip was either sapphire or diamond. Playing the mechanical 78's on electrical 78 player would probably wreck the stylus and maybe the disc, too, or at least cause excessive wear and probably wouldn't sound very good.

I believe the mechanical 78s had the music etched vertically into the disc and the electrical 78s were horizontal, though I could be wrong.

Never mind, I just looked at a couple under a microscope. Both types appear to be horizontally recorded. I think the Edison diamond discs were vertical. The mechanical 78s were about 12" diameter and the electrical ones were 10".

That’s fascinating stuff indeed. I have a friend who’s a serious composer. A few years ago she was working on a piece inspired by developments in music reproduction, and for that she’d purchased an Edison-type roll phonograph and played it for me. The player was extremely well-made and functioned as on the day it was made. Those were indeed vertically-recorded.

The records I would want to play are probably all of the later type - say the 1950s.
I got into all that because my grandmother gave me the 45 & 78 singles collection that my uncle never took with him when he emigrated to Canada around 1960. They’re hits from the late 1950’s (Tommy Steele, Johnnie Ray, the Kalin Twins, Harry Belafonte, Russ Hamilton, Paul Anka etc) - some of them on 78rpm.

I occasionally find some great music on 78rpm, like “Arriverderci darling” by Jo Stafford and a couple of Spike Jones songs. The oldest record I have is one of Debussy’s String Quartet by the Quator Capet, from 1929, on four 12’’ discs.

 

[Luthien]

Highly recommend getting a cheap phono preamp between your Dual and tape input on your receiver/amp.

The amp already has a dedicated phono input!

 

[Luthien]

Seeing your title had me think of this:

View attachment 3386436

Makes you wonder if those speeds were selected to add up

The picture reminded me of our dorm when I was a student: one of us was playing a record from his room with the door open while we were having coffee in the kitchen. Suddenly the music started to sound weird, as if someone was manually slowing down the turntable (like when holding a finger against it). The guy who played the record jumped up to check it out, but the music went back to normal so he sat down again.

A minute later, the same thing happened again. And again it went back to normal before he could check what was happening.

He sat down again and we all waited for the next occurrence. When that came, he got up really quietly, and tiptoed to the door of his room and peaked around the corner, to see how our house cat was sitting next to the turntable, looking transfixed at the spinning record. And then, he carefully lifted up his paw and gently patted the record surface, which of course caused the musiiic tooo sslloooowwwwowww temporarily

 

[tourmax]

Yep, repo tk12 sleds can be pricey. But so is everything these days.

I don’t know of any less expensive options. Even searching dualfred’s shop showed up nothing.

When dealing with old stuff and few suppliers, it’s a “you gotta pay to play” type of thing.

 

[mrehorst]

I remember seeing old record players that had two styli (or was it two tips on one stylus?) in the cartridge and a lever you would flip to switch between 78s and LP's/45s. Are those, probably ceramic, cartridges available anywhere these days?

 

[Barncats]

Just to add another data point, for the many years I enjoyed an ELAC 40A, I had a Stanton 500 with two styli, and on the rare occasions when I wanted to listen to 78s, just swapped styli and adjusted the tracking force. Worked great.

 

[Bicyclist]

The 1019 is a wonderful choice and repro sleds while expensive, work extremely well. I would second the two cartridge idea as resetting the tone arm weight is very simple on the dual.