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Power Hungry Speaker Question

Taylor Player

Taylor Player

AK Subscriber
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So when someone says a pair of speakers "really like a lot of power" can someone explain where the benefit of that power is heard? Will a powerhouse amp make an audible difference in power hungry speakers at, say, night time listening levels or is this a case where power equates to volume to get them to really shine? Sorry for this basic question, but it's one I've often wondered about and haven't experienced first hand.
 
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Power hungry speakers are usually called that because they have low impedance dips that many amplifiers just can't tolerate.. or don't to so gracefully. I had a pair of Infinity RS-IIs and before I got them a friend burnt up a marantz receiver playing them. They are notoriously power hungry and require lots of power into low impedance to play well.
 
Power hungry speakers need more power from the amp to sound "the same" as less power hungry speakers. Efficient speakers are thought of as "better", though it is not true. It's only a salesman's pitch, to push crap onto you.

A speaker with a superb crossover will be less loud than the maximum output of the driver in the raw. Unfortunately there are few superb speakers out there, but that's beside the point. Cheap speakers often have a low crossover point for the tweeter, 3 kHz or lower, and with a small-diameter tweeter, loud on its own, about 95 dB/m, it is also very harsh-sounding in that low region. I'm not going to dwell on crossover design too much, but know that good-sounding speakers don't have an efficiency of 93 dB/m or above, if we are talking home stereo speakers. 85 dB/m is not a problem, only for a salesman at Sears who lives off of the number 95 dB/m, speakers you can't listen to without feeling nauseated.

It's actually good to have speakers with less efficiency because the amp must then work harder, perform in its mid range of output, in the range where it plays cleaner and with more dynamics on hand. For comparison, you don't want to drive a Ferrari at 10 miles per hour in top gear, barely touching the gas pedal. The engine will run rough. You want to put that engine in the mid range of operation, 4000 rpm, to have dynamic power on hand.

If I was given a pair of speakers unseen, and had a choice, was told one pair was of 85 dB/m and the other 95 dB/m, I would always take the 85 dB/m speakers.
 
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If you have an amp with gobs of power to driver lower efficiency speakers that's fine. For us single ended guys very high efficiency is where it's at, the higher the better. My amp puts out 9.5 watts per channel. With my full range Audio Nirvana Super 12's rated at 99 db efficiency it gets plenty loud. speakers in the 80's just wouldn't do. There's some single ended amps putting out only 3/4 watt, in this case you'd want speakers in the 100 plus area.

Mike
 
It's not a question of one being "better" than the other. Matching the speakers to your amp is key.

Mike
 
Efficient speakers are thought of as "better", though it is not true. It's only a salesman's pitch, to push crap onto you.
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:scratch2:

but know that good-sounding speakers don't have an efficiency of 93 dB/m or above, if we are talking home stereo speakers.
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:no:

"Efficiency", high or low is hardly relative to good sounding.
 
The previous poster and I are pretty well aligned on this topic, I'd opine :-)

DSC_5793.jpg


There are certainly speakers that are such difficult loads (low impedance/high reactance) that gutbuster amps are required for anything like satisfactory performance, even for little girl with guitar music at polite levels. The early Magneplanars are good examples. Amplifier power is so cheap today that some (perhaps many) loudspeaker manufacturers don't much worry about sensitivity or how easy the load is for the amp to drive - Many of today's audiophile darlings suck the life out of music relative to my tastes and expectations.

But my tastes aren't yours, so the above only adds any value if you happen to listen to some great high-sensitivity loudspeakers and experience the visceral reaction that I do.
 
strawberry said:
know that good-sounding speakers don't have an efficiency of 93 dB/m or above, if we are talking home stereo speakers. 85 dB/m is not a problem, only for a salesman at Sears who lives off of the number 95 dB/m, speakers you can't listen to without feeling nauseated.

If I was given a pair of speakers unseen, and had a choice, was told one pair was of 85 dB/m and the other 95 dB/m, I would always take the 85 dB/m speakers.
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My Electro Voice Interface C II's are 93db, my Altec 19's 99db, my Magnepan MG-IIIa's 84 db, Infinity QLS-1's in the mid to upper 80's and in no way does the rated sensitivity of any of those models have any influence on the outstanding sonic qualities each possesses....so let's get that straight before we go any further.

To answer the OP....lets say we have a 100 watt amp to power all of the models I mentioned. The Altecs and EV's, with their higher rated sensitivity, will reach any given output level (volume) with less input power (watts) compared to the Maggies or Infinities. What you'll notice when you go from a design with high sensitivity to one of lower sensitivity is that it takes a higher setting on the volume control to get the low sensitivity design to play at the same volume as the high sensitivity design. The Altecs might be blasting your room pretty good at 9 o'clock on the volume knob, but to get the Infinities up to that volume you'll need to take the volume knob on up to 12 o'clock.....hence the term "power hungry".
So what you can run into with a speaker design that "likes a lot of power" is distortion from a lower power output amp when it's being pushed hard by "power hungry" speakers. Definition, clarity, and transient speed (among other things) all suffer when an amp with insufficient output to drive "power hungry" speakers is being used and driven hard.

Now, something else to be aware of is some "power hungry" designs can actually damage an amp if the amp doesn't have a high enough rated output....and watts aren't the final word. Current is just as crtical a consideration. For example, the Infinity QLS-1's I mentioned are considered "power hungry" primarily because the 12" dual voice coil Watkins woofer they employ can create a 2 ohm load and this can be very difficult for an amp to deal with if it doesn't have sufficient current output. I have an Onkyo M-504 rated at around 165 wpc and a Threshold S-300 rated at 150 wpc. Though the Onkyo has a higher output rating than the Threshold, the Threshold has much more output current. What's significant here is that if I tried to play the big Infinities at very high volumes with the Onkyo I would stand a good chance of sending it into protection mode or even damaging it. The Threshold OTOH, being what you'll hear referred to as a "high current" design, would barely break a sweat.

- Michael
 
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Would a very efficent set of speakers be more inclined to be able to reproduce slight nuance's in recordings better than speakers that are less efficent? It would seem to me that a speaker that is very efficent would be more inclined to react and reproduce slight nuance's better than an inefficent pair of speakers.
 
Taylor Playe said:
So when someone says a pair of speakers "really like a lot of power" can someone explain where the benefit of that power is heard? Will a powerhouse amp make an audible difference in power hungry speakers at, say, night time listening levels or is this a case where power equates to volume to get them to really shine? Sorry for this basic question, but it's one I've often wondered about and haven't experienced first hand.
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IMO the benefit is heard at anything above moderate volume. At some point a lower power amp will run out of steam. But I thinnk for the most part low level listening is not what people are referring to.
 
strawberry said:
Power hungry speakers need more power from the amp to sound "the same" as less power hungry speakers. Efficient speakers are thought of as "better", though it is not true. It's only a salesman's pitch, to push crap onto you.

A speaker with a superb crossover will be less loud than the maximum output of the driver in the raw. Unfortunately there are few superb speakers out there, but that's beside the point. Cheap speakers often have a low crossover point for the tweeter, 3 kHz or lower, and with a small-diameter tweeter, loud on its own, about 95 dB/m, it is also very harsh-sounding in that low region. I'm not going to dwell on crossover design too much, but know that good-sounding speakers don't have an efficiency of 93 dB/m or above, if we are talking home stereo speakers. 85 dB/m is not a problem, only for a salesman at Sears who lives off of the number 95 dB/m, speakers you can't listen to without feeling nauseated.

It's actually good to have speakers with less efficiency because the amp must then work harder, perform in its mid range of output, in the range where it plays cleaner and with more dynamics on hand. For comparison, you don't want to drive a Ferrari at 10 miles per hour in top gear, barely touching the gas pedal. The engine will run rough. You want to put that engine in the mid range of operation, 4000 rpm, to have dynamic power on hand.

If I was given a pair of speakers unseen, and had a choice, was told one pair was of 85 dB/m and the other 95 dB/m, I would always take the 85 dB/m speakers.
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Strawberry, believe me when I say I tried to pull a nugget of truth or enlightenment from your post. I got a nugget, but it was a nugget of something else.
 
If you look at the specs of drivers at parts-express.com you see that woofers have an efficiency of 85 dB/m to 90 dB/m for the most part, and mid drivers lower. Tweeters often between 90 dB/m and 95 dB/m. Yet, most speakers you can buy in the big box stores, fit with cheaper, less efficient drivers, often read 93 dB/m or so on the protective boxes. The only way that can be achieved is if the producer attenuate the tiny crappy tweeter poorly and uses the highest reading the system can produce. Imagine that, a 85 dB/m woofer and a 93 dB/m tweeter. No wonder these audio forums are spilling over with people who ask for help from people like me to tweak their crossover to produce less treble. A speaker for the home stereo, that has a serious crossover, don't get over 90 dB/m.

But many of you are so sold about the idea 93 dB/m is real and it is good, I can do nothing for you. You are listening to crap and you don't even know it. Carry on. Go play with your poop, who ever that was.
 
strawberry said:
If you look at the specs of drivers at parts-express.com you see that woofers have an efficiency of 85 dB/m to 90 dB/m for the most part, and mid drivers lower. Tweeters often between 90 dB/m and 95 dB/m. Yet, most speakers you can buy in the big box stores, fit with cheaper, less efficient drivers, often read 93 dB/m or so on the protective boxes. The only way that can be achieved is if the producer attenuate the tiny crappy tweeter poorly and uses the highest reading the system can produce. Imagine that, a 85 dB/m woofer and a 93 dB/m tweeter. No wonder these audio forums are spilling over with people who ask for help from people like me to tweak their crossover to produce less treble. A speaker for the home stereo, that has a serious crossover, don't get over 90 dB/m.

But many of you are so sold about the idea 93 dB/m is real and it is good, I can do nothing for you. You are listening to crap and you don't even know it. Carry on. Go play with your poop, who ever that was.
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Wow.

Tough for me to not pounce but I don't need to. You've discredited yourself quite thoroughly without me having to illustrate it to anyone else. And I can see attempting to illustrate it to you would clearly be a waste of my precious time. Most things in audio are indeed subjective.... but I don't think this one qualifies.

- Michael
 
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Taylor Playe said:
So when someone says a pair of speakers "really like a lot of power" can someone explain where the benefit of that power is heard? Will a powerhouse amp make an audible difference in power hungry speakers at, say, night time listening levels or is this a case where power equates to volume to get them to really shine? Sorry for this basic question, but it's one I've often wondered about and haven't experienced first hand.
Click to expand...

Here is something to keep in mind. A higher sensitivity speaker will allow you to run your amp at lower power levels and that is safer for both your amp and the speakers. The real issue is having an under powered amp especially when paired with lower sensitivity speakers. When pushing a low wattage amp into low sensitivity speakers and cranking it up it is very likely that you will drive the amp into clipping. Clipping can blow out the speakers and harm the amp. That is why there are so many 100 WPC and above amps out there. It's not likely that you are actually going to use all that power but it gives the amp plenty of headroom to avoid clipping.

JBL low power tech note:
http://www.jblpro.com/BackOffice/ProductAttachments/lowpower.pdf
 
Ummm, man I hate sensitivity and efficiency being intermingled as they are two completely different measurements, but anyway.

Sensitivity in no way equates to quality sound, nor is the reverse true.

High sensitivity requires at least one thing, a huge enclosure, assuming one wants good bass to go along with the sensitivity. But many people want compact, and that by nature leads to low sensitivity. Hoffmans Iron Law tells you exactly what to expect, and what you can and cannot have with any given enclosure size.

Manufacturers know this, and build things accordingly. Quality of sound is completely separate of that law.
 
SoundOfSound said:
Here is something to keep in mind. A higher sensitivity speaker will allow you to run your amp at lower power levels and that is safer for both your amp and the speakers. The real issue is having an under powered amp especially when paired with lower sensitivity speakers. When pushing a low wattage amp into low sensitivity speakers and cranking it up it is very likely that you will drive the amp into clipping. Clipping can blow out the speakers and harm the amp. That is why there are so many 100 WPC and above amps out there. It's not likely that you are actually going to use all that power but it gives the amp plenty of headroom to avoid clipping.

JBL low power tech note:
http://www.jblpro.com/BackOffice/ProductAttachments/lowpower.pdf
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An amp can clip all day long and not care. Most speakers can take a clipped signal all day long as well and not care.

Speakers get blown by over powering them. If an amp blows a speaker, it over powered it, clipping or not.
 
strawberry said:
The only way that can be achieved is if the producer attenuate the tiny crappy tweeter poorly and uses the highest reading the system can produce.
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They don't attenuate the tiny crappy tweeter poorly. They attenuate the tweeter to match the output of the woofer. It's called "How to design a speaker", and most speakers are made that way.

strawberry said:
No wonder these audio forums are spilling over with people who ask for help from people like me to tweak their crossover to produce less treble.
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No comment.

A speaker for the home stereo, that has a serious crossover, don't get over 90 dB/m.

But many of you are so sold about the idea 93 dB/m is real and it is good, I can do nothing for you. You are listening to crap and you don't even know it. Carry on. Go play with your poop, who ever that was.
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This is just wrong, no other way to put it.
There are good sounding speakers with low sensitivity, good sounding speakers with high sensitivity, and everything in between.
 
strawberry, my cv's are 4 ohms. difficult load for some. yet they will drop your jaw in what they can do. And yes most of my listening is done at around .02watts or way less. sounds to me you do not know what you are talking about. Can yo explain yourself further?
 
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