Power Hungry Speaker Question

[bowtie427ss]

If you look at the specs of drivers at parts-express.com you see that woofers have an efficiency of 85 dB/m to 90 dB/m for the most part, and mid drivers lower. Tweeters often between 90 dB/m and 95 dB/m. Yet, most speakers you can buy in the big box stores, fit with cheaper, less efficient drivers, often read 93 dB/m or so on the protective boxes. The only way that can be achieved is if the producer attenuate the tiny crappy tweeter poorly and uses the highest reading the system can produce. Imagine that, a 85 dB/m woofer and a 93 dB/m tweeter. No wonder these audio forums are spilling over with people who ask for help from people like me to tweak their crossover to produce less treble. A speaker for the home stereo, that has a serious crossover, don't get over 90 dB/m.

But many of you are so sold about the idea 93 dB/m is real and it is good, I can do nothing for you. You are listening to crap and you don't even know it. Carry on. Go play with your poop, who ever that was.

We'll play with yours first since you posted plenty of it for all to see.

You need to find a different forum. You know not of what you speak.

Your urge to post and lack of audio knowledge combined with your ability to read catalog pages without understanding their contents has you in WAY OVER YOUR HEAD.

For the benefit of the OP i would suggest that there are basically two different forms of "power hungry". There are loudspeakers with low sensitivity that simply require more voltage to achieve a given SPL level than a more sensitive design. Then there are loudspeakers that are more "reactive" loads which may have high current demands and impedance curves with a fairly broad swing.

Poll the favorite loudspeakers of AKers and you will find representation across the spectrum, from the lowest sensitivity acoustic suspension monitors to horn loaded mains of the highest sensitivity, stats, planars, and other unique designs that present loads from almost completely capacitive to purely resistive. Different amplifiers and different speakers combine for different results. Nothing substitutes an audition. But arming yourself with some empirical data on the components you're considering can help you make somewhat accurate predictions of how certain components might play together.

 

[63pontiacgp]

It seems that someone can't play nice and might need a "time out"

Mike

 

[PR Audio]

Sorry for the off-topic...for those of you who haven't read some of Strawberry's posts. The guy keeps making reference to a You Tube video of DIY speakers that he is selling. Apparently those posts have flown under the Moderators radar, as they have not been deleted or moved. If you see the video, it is a good laugh with TV People's Court playing on them, so you can hear how amazing they sound, even thru crappy soundcards and PC speakers. Price is another duessy...Back to our scheduled thread.

 

[seacliffe301]

I notice that there is no mention of which components are being used in Strawberry's system. Hmmm.

Regarding potential speaker damage, it's always been my understanding that an amplifier delivering a square wave (clipping) is more apt to cause damage to the speaker, regardless of the amount of wattage.

 

[sax6]

An amp can clip all day long and not care. Most speakers can take a clipped signal all day long as well and not care.

Speakers get blown by over powering them. If an amp blows a speaker, it over powered it, clipping or not.

Here we go AGAIN !

 

[DON73]

OP basically asked what time it is and got instructions on making a clock. Without explaining much.........speaker efficiency is rated using a db number. A speaker rated at 89db is supposed to produce 89db (loud enough to hear very well) one meter in front of the speaker with 1 watt of power from the amp. It doesn't matter if the 1 watt comes from a 50 watt amp or a 500 watt amp.

 

[Jeffery]

Without explaining much.........speaker efficiency is rated using a db number. A speaker rated at 89db is supposed to produce 89db (loud enough to hear very well) one meter in front of the speaker with 1 watt of power from the amp.

That's what drives me crazy. You have just given a detailed definition of speaker sensitivity and mistakenly called it efficiency.

 

[PR Audio]

OP, as you can see this is a confusing subject for lots of people. Sensitivity and Efficiency can be easily mistaken, I thought they were the same thing for years. Instead of trying to explaining it to you, it will be better to give you a link. Though Wikipedia in some occasions is wrong, due to people entering wrong or misleading info, in this case is pretty accurate. Feel free to read it.

 

[BOUXY]

Wow.

Tough for me to not pounce but I don't need to. You've discredited yourself quite thoroughly without me having to illustrate it to anyone else. And I can see attempting to illustrate it to you would clearly be a waste of my precious time. Most things in audio are indeed subjective.... but I don't think this one qualifies.

- Michael

Officially now "Seconded"
Case closed!:thumbsdn:

 

[tomlinmgt]

OP basically asked what time it is and got instructions on making a clock. Without explaining much.........speaker efficiency is rated using a db number. A speaker rated at 89db is supposed to produce 89db (loud enough to hear very well) one meter in front of the speaker with 1 watt of power from the amp. It doesn't matter if the 1 watt comes from a 50 watt amp or a 500 watt amp.

Actually he asked if and how a "power hungry" speaker benefits from an amp with higher output.....not an explanation on sensitivity (which you're calling efficiency). We're all just trying to help (with the exception of strawberry)...there's really no need for your critical evaluation of our good natured posts.

 

[PR Audio]

Actually he asked if and how a "power hungry" speaker benefits from an amp with higher output.....not an explanation on sensitivity (which you're calling efficiency). We're all just trying to help (with the exception of strawberry)...there's really no need for your critical evaluation of our good natured posts.

Careful, you don't want to mess with Strawberry. Did you see his videos and comments on You Tube? You don't know when he can strike.

 

[Todd MacDona]

I had a pair of MB Quart speakers. They sounded ok with 100 watts, but given 200 watts they sounded better. They were a 4 ohm load. I had them in a hallway space which was 9x12. Listening levels were the same, the higher power seemed to reveal more.
Also had a pair of Heresy speakers. They sounded just fine with 100 and also with 200 given to them.
:headscrat

Probably not much help....

 

[shelly_d]

Would a very efficent set of speakers be more inclined to be able to reproduce slight nuance's in recordings better than speakers that are less efficent? It would seem to me that a speaker that is very efficent would be more inclined to react and reproduce slight nuance's better than an inefficent pair of speakers.

No. Slight nuance's sould be small and (probably) fast or sudden changes in the music. Or at least that is what I take you term "nuance" to mean. If I understand you correctly, then we are speaking about the transient response of the driver, which has nothing to do with either efficency or sensitivity.

I notice that there is no mention of which components are being used in Strawberry's system. Hmmm.

Regarding potential speaker damage, it's always been my understanding that an amplifier delivering a square wave (clipping) is more apt to cause damage to the speaker, regardless of the amount of wattage.

Please don't encourage him. He knows not of what he speaks.

Original Poster.

For a number of reasons, some very well articulated here, some speakers seem to sound more lively when run on high power amps. I don't know why for sure but the explanations reguarding current capacity seem the most plausable to me. There might also be a difference in speaker control, that is, higher power amps may have a better ability to control unwanted speaker movement.

Also, please ignore Strawberry.

Shelly_D

 

[Taylor Player]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses. While not everything posted in the thread seems to be in agreement among respondents, the info I was looking for in my original post (do 'power hungry' speakers offer a more detailed listening experience at higher listening levels than moderate levels when driven by the same adequate amp in both instances) came through in several comments.

Thanks again.

Daren

 

[Rob41]

Power hungry speakers need more power from the amp to sound "the same" as less power hungry speakers. Efficient speakers are thought of as "better", though it is not true. It's only a salesman's pitch, to push crap onto you.

A speaker with a superb crossover will be less loud than the maximum output of the driver in the raw. Unfortunately there are few superb speakers out there, but that's beside the point. Cheap speakers often have a low crossover point for the tweeter, 3 kHz or lower, and with a small-diameter tweeter, loud on its own, about 95 dB/m, it is also very harsh-sounding in that low region. I'm not going to dwell on crossover design too much, but know that good-sounding speakers don't have an efficiency of 93 dB/m or above, if we are talking home stereo speakers. 85 dB/m is not a problem, only for a salesman at Sears who lives off of the number 95 dB/m, speakers you can't listen to without feeling nauseated.

It's actually good to have speakers with less efficiency because the amp must then work harder, perform in its mid range of output, in the range where it plays cleaner and with more dynamics on hand. For comparison, you don't want to drive a Ferrari at 10 miles per hour in top gear, barely touching the gas pedal. The engine will run rough. You want to put that engine in the mid range of operation, 4000 rpm, to have dynamic power on hand.

If I was given a pair of speakers unseen, and had a choice, was told one pair was of 85 dB/m and the other 95 dB/m, I would always take the 85 dB/m speakers.

Very entertaining post.

 

[Bostown]

(do 'power hungry' speakers offer a more detailed listening experience at higher listening levels than moderate levels when driven by the same adequate amp in both instances) came through in several comments.

Thanks again.

Daren

I'm not sure i read the more sensible commentary quite the same way. Pairing high or low sensitivity speakers with the right amp seems to be the common theme here. A proper pairing should allow the speaker to provide " a detailed listening experience" at low to moderate volume levels.

For me, the amp needs to drive the speaker well enough to perform even at " shhhhhhh, dont wake the baby" volume levels. Reproducing a lush sound ( and im thinking low end as well as imaging and soundstage for lack of better descriptive language) without the need to crank things up to 11. Plenty of "lower power" ( by the numbers) amps can drive a less sensitive speaker at high volume but it is conversation level listening that may suffer. Things may sound flat and lifeless, lacking low end performance.

More power ( not necessarily identified by rated output) for me is about low level listening , and more commonly with speakers of lower sensitivity, although it varies from speaker to speaker. Hence all the amp and speaker options i've "collected". Mixing, matching and ultimately Listening is where the fun is for me while eperimenting.

 

[elza]

Here is something to keep in mind. A higher sensitivity speaker will allow you to run your amp at lower power levels and that is safer for both your amp and the speakers. The real issue is having an under powered amp especially when paired with lower sensitivity speakers. When pushing a low wattage amp into low sensitivity speakers and cranking it up it is very likely that you will drive the amp into clipping. Clipping can blow out the speakers and harm the amp. That is why there are so many 100 WPC and above amps out there. It's not likely that you are actually going to use all that power but it gives the amp plenty of headroom to avoid clipping.

This is exactly what I ran into. My original amp was a Pioneer SA9100. At 60 wpc it was usually adequate to drive the Imperial 9’s. IIRC they are rated at 93 db. However, I have a penchant for classical pipe organ. The 32ft pedal ran it close. The 64ft would drive it into clipping at even moderate volume levels. After I switched to the Phase Linear 400 the problem vanished. Overall I’m not using any more power than I did with the 9100 but the extra overhead of the 400 easily carries the power sucking deep bass transients.

 

[budgetaudio6]

elza, i experience teh same thing. CV MX 400, going from 100 to 200 wpc(different pre), what can i say.

 

[Rob41]

I agree with most of the above. If you have a 200wpc amp and try to listen to 200wpc you are going to fail miserably. If you take that same 200wpc amp and try to listen to your music at 100wpc and use a heavy hand on your bass knob you'll fail. Not enough can be said for not running out of headroom and there is no such thing as too much headroom.

I tri-amp my speakers (actually 4 amps). The woofers are powered by a pair of Carver mono-blocks (900wpc). The mids are powered by a 350wpc Heathkit amp and the planar tweets are powered by a 150wpc Heathkit.

Although it may look like a horrible mismatch power-wise, it's not. During heavy peaks it is the lowest frequencies that require the most headroom. The mids require less headroom than the woofers and the tweeters require less headroom that either.

The vast majority of the time I only to 1/2 to 2 watts of continuous power. Sometimes (when the wife goes to the store) I run it up to 20wpc continuous. Needless to say, I've never run out of headroom.

I'm sure I could live with a 200wpc + a 100wpc + a 100wpc set of amps but what I have now sounds very pleasing and none of my amps get hot.

I have used amps in the past that sounded excellent but when pushed the sound utterly degraded. It would become veiled, muddy and simply underwhelming and all of this long before any clipping occurred.