Power Hungry Speakers Question

[HamptonT]

If I typically listen at low volume, what would a larger wattage amp do for “power hungry” speakers? For instance, I’ve read that a person with AR9’s fed them with a 250 WPC amp and he said they could still take more. How do you know? How do you know that they need more power? Unless you do the obvious which is crank them to 11?
What I’m trying to get at is… will a larger amp make them sound better at low volume, too?
Thanks.

 

[wmgwizard]

Up to a point, no.

Listening at low volume does not consume much power(1-2 watts) but even at low volume peaks in the signal can call for instantaneous bursts of power(10-20 watts).

If you are listening at low volume with a 10wpc amp and upgrade to something with 50wpc you may notice an improvement but if you already have a 50wpc amp, a 200wpc amp probably wont make much of a difference.

 

[spark1]

The power required to achieve a given volume is highy dependent upon speaker sensitivity.

The scenarios in which a "bigger" (more powerful) amp will make one's speakers sound better are:

• Your existing amp is unable to achieve desired loudness without clipping.

Done. That's the only situation in which a more powerful amp will improve sound quality.

Unused power - that is, power beyond the amount necessary to achieve desired loudness without clipping - provides no sonic benefit. Indeed, how could it, since by definition it is unused.

This is not to say that having more power than required is of no value. It provides flexibility if/when you want to go louder or use less sensitive speakers.

On a related note, if an amp is unable to deliver the current demanded by a difficult load, amplification will become less linear at affected frequencies, and sound quality will suffer. However, this does not necessarily translate into needing an amp with a higher power rating.

There are plenty of amps with high power ratings but unable to deliver the current demanded by lower impedance loads, and there are great amps with relatively low power ratings but able to deliver demanded current into very low impedances.

On another related note, it seems to me that the phrase "power hungry" is used to describe two different things:

1. Speakers which are of low sensitivity, or
2. Speakers which only sound good at higher volumes

Finally, keep in mind that better recordings will have peaks of 12-15dB, or even higher. To avoid clipping (or at least keep it to a minimum), your amp needs to be able to deliver exponentially more power for these peaks than is being used on a continuous/RMS basis. For example:

• 9dB peaks = 8x
• 12dB peaks = 16x
• 15dB peaks = 32x

 

[2FarGone]

At low volume levels, the old adage seems to apply: “If the first watt sounds like sh*t, why would you want 199 more of them?” What I would want is an ability to deliver whatever happened to be an appropriate signal level without constriction. I’d rather have a 100 wpch Threshold Stasis III than most 200 wpch amps of the same era.

 

[Rick Vestal]

The way I look at it... Let's say your speakers are around the 90db efficiency range. At 8 watts, you'd be at 99db. Subtract 12db for another 2 meters of listening distance. That leaves you at roughly 87db, which is a fairly comfortable listening level. There's guys running 801D4's off of 30 watt tube rigs that I'm sure sound amazing. Ruffles my chickens when I see these ignorant responses on FB groups "you need 1200watt Mc monoblocks to really make them sing!" Oh get bent FB poster....

 

[wmgwizard]

But there are many speakers that do seem to sound better when being driven at moderate to loud levels, they just don't do "quiet listening" very well.

 

[nj pheonix]

Probably 3 part (at least ) answer.
Some speakers drop to very low impedance at low frequencies. Some amps are better able to deal with this than others. Damping factor can be an issue. Some manufacturers recommend amp with a damping factor greater than x. I agree that some speakers don't properly sound balanced until they pass a certain spl (?) Level. If that's not clear they sound so so until they reach a certain volume level and then they sound better.
FWIW, I listen at low levels myself with relatively easy to drive speakers and don't find extra power to improve the experience.
That said, there are certainly better quality amps that produce a lot of power that more likely contribute to the perception.
A lot of grey area here, leaving out our personal preferences.

 

[Akustic]

To a degree you can experience sharper better defined transients and clarity even at lower volumes with substantial reserves of power and a high damping factor in the amp ..
Certainly with Acoustic suspension, sealed box speakers .. not quite as obviously with a ported box speaker ..
Demands on the amp are dynamic and vary with frequency. Very short transient peaks especially in the lower frequencies can momentarily require very large amounts of power.

Limited power will clip those peaks and never reproduce them .. not necessarily noticeably except in comparison to a higher powered amp with substantial reserves of power.
Even at low volumes the more substantial amp will often sound a bit clearer with better definition .. especially in the lower frequencies.
It's only really noticeable in direct comparison though.
It's easy to live with a lower powered amp for years and never notice it's limitations until it's directly compared to a substantially more powerful amp ..
There's a reason why truly high end systems do not use low powered amps .. Available power improves system dynamics ..

 

[KentTeffeteller]

If I typically listen at low volume, what would a larger wattage amp do for “power hungry” speakers? For instance, I’ve read that a person with AR9’s fed them with a 250 WPC amp and he said they could still take more. How do you know? How do you know that they need more power? Unless you do the obvious which is crank them to 11?
What I’m trying to get at is… will a larger amp make them sound better at low volume, too?
Thanks.

Some speakers simply put need more than just higher wattage. They also need the current to back it up. In the case of the AR-9 you also need that amplifier to be able to do this driving a 2.7 ohm load as well. Many amplifiers simply put, can't. As in blowing fuses, tripping protection circuitry, or emitting smoke and destroying semiconductors, emitter resistors, and even burning up PC boards. You have been warned.

 

[spark1]

There's a reason why truly high end systems do not use low powered amps .. Available power improves system dynamics ..

There are certainly "truly high end systems" using lower powered amps. Amp requirements are defined by speaker characteristics and desired loudness.

I would be curious as to how more power than is needed to avoid clipping can improve dynamics.

 

[heyraz]

Need to consider an amp's input sensitivity to drive it to full power.
A preamp may have a "sweet zone" that sounds better on a lower powered amp. Might barely be able to adjust the preamp's volume on a very sensitive amp.

 

[RVT1K]

There are certainly "truly high end systems" using lower powered amps. Amp requirements are defined by speaker characteristics and desired loudness.

I would be curious as to how more power than is needed to avoid clipping can improve dynamics.

Me too. But if the amp were not being driven into clipping, wouldn't slew rate come into play?

 

[spark1]

Slew rate may have an affect on SQ, but, the original question addressed power capability...specifically, the sonic benefit of having an amp capable of more power than required to achieve desired loudness and do so without clipping.

A particular amp may have better performance when kept well below rated power, or better performance when pushed closer to rated power. But these are amp-specific characteristics, and don't change the general rule.

 

[titanstats]

At low volume levels, the old adage seems to apply: “If the first watt sounds like sh*t, why would you want 199 more of them?” What I would want is an ability to deliver whatever happened to be an appropriate signal level without constriction. I’d rather have a 100 wpch Threshold Stasis III than most 200 wpch amps of the same era.

Love the Threshold, but 100W isn't enough power for some speakers of that era. In the end, everything depends on the speakers you are running in your system.

 

[opnly bafld]

The way I look at it... Let's say your speakers are around the 90db efficiency range. At 8 watts, you'd be at 99db. Subtract 12db for another 2 meters of listening distance. That leaves you at roughly 87db, which is a fairly comfortable listening level.

I get 95.4 with 90dB x 2 speakers at 10 feet, between 2-4 feet from the wall. and 8 watts.
https://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

 

[opnly bafld]

I’d rather have a 100 wpch Threshold Stasis III than most 200 wpch amps of the same era.

Never met a speaker yet that a quality 100w amplifier couldn't drive to way louder levels than I need.

 

[izeek11]

Never met a speaker yet that a quality 100w amplifier couldn't drive to way louder levels than I need.

i dont think volume is the issue being debated. its about the possibility of better dynamics because of more power, if i interpreted correctly. though, actually its the current need that makes the difference.

 

[opnly bafld]

i dont think volume is the issue being debated. its about the possibility of better dynamics because of more power, if i interpreted correctly. though, actually its the current need that makes the difference.

Like I said, last I checked "dynamics" is part of volume.

 

[E2]

Some speakers simply put need more than just higher wattage. They also need the current to back it up. In the case of the AR-9 you also need that amplifier to be able to do this driving a 2.7 ohm load as well. Many amplifiers simply put, can't. As in blowing fuses, tripping protection circuitry, or emitting smoke and destroying semiconductors, emitter resistors, and even burning up PC boards. You have been warned.

Current!

I keep reading the Totem Mani 2's I have need gobs of power to be driven properly, and I have found that is not remotely true.
What people really mean is to drive them to the amazing levels they can reach you do need more oomph so to speak.

The Tannoy System 800's I have need gobs of power and are difficult to drive. (They were my first thrift store score 18 years ago for $20)

A matter of fact my Yamaha NS 1000's with that 12 inch woofer can be bested by the much smaller Totems. Especially in Bass. Surprising but true. The Yamahas still sound great..........

 

[spark1]

Dynamics are about linear response. Clipping (a shortfall of voltage capability) reduces linear response, as does inability to deliver required current without voltage sag (and without triggering current overload protection or burning up the outputs).