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Power Hungry Speakers Question

The OP stated in the title that these are power hungry speakers he is asking about. To me, that means they are likely 4 Ohm speakers.

HamptonT said:
If I typically listen at low volume, what would a larger wattage amp do for “power hungry” speakers? For instance, I’ve read that a person with AR9’s fed them with a 250 WPC amp and he said they could still take more. How do you know? How do you know that they need more power? Unless you do the obvious which is crank them to 11?
What I’m trying to get at is… will a larger amp make them sound better at low volume, too?
Thanks.
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As has been mentioned earlier, it depends.

But, if you are asking about low impedance speakers, then yes, you most certainly will hear improvement in sound if you throw a higher power amplifier at it. You will hear even better sound if it is a high current amplifier. If your amp isn't already clipping, you should still hear a deeper, more defined bass.

Let me give you an example. I have been using Kef speakers for years. In January, I upgraded from Kef 105 to Kef 107s. I have been using both sets of speakers with my Bose 1801s. Lots of current in these beasts! The transformer weighs half the 88 lbs of the amp! Its a monster!

Both sets of speakers sound great with the Bose, although I can see on the meters that the 107s are more power hungry than the 105s. So in order to power the 107s in their new home on the main floor, I brought in my Yamaha M40 amplifier to drive them temporarily until my son-in-law gets a chance to come over and give me a hand move the Bose 1801. The Yamaha M40 is a high current amp rated up to 120 WPC and with the ability to drive 3 pairs of speakers simultaneously, provided you are using 2 pairs of 4 ohm speakers and 1 pair of 8 ohm speakers. The Kef 107 sound pretty good with the M40, but I can hear the strain when I crank it up a little. I know the Bose 1801 will drive them effortlessly. I would be curious to hear what they sound like with a 500 WPC high current amp. I image the sweet spot would be even better!

BTW, I love large 4 ohm speakers and I've been using them for over 12 years..
 
spark1 said:
There are certainly "truly high end systems" using lower powered amps. Amp requirements are defined by speaker characteristics and desired loudness.

I would be curious as to how more power than is needed to avoid clipping can improve dynamics.
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You've asked me this repeatedly in a variety of threads and the answer is always the same ..
Instantaneous power requirements are virtually impossible to measure but clipped transients are IMO and to my ear very much audible in comparison to a lower powered or inadequately damped amp ..
There are many afficiaodos of low powered amps on this board .. to each his own .. I like dynamics and I certainly can hear the difference ..
And please link me to the $50,000 high end system using panel speakers or large arrays and low powered amps ..
Or to a musician who uses 10 watt amps ...
And yes .. I like and own tube amps too, but their low power limits the choice of speakers that they can be used with ..

We will forever disagree ...
Evening ..
 
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Akustic said:
You've asked me this repeatedly in a variety of threads and the answer is always the same ..
Instantaneous power requirements are virtually impossible to measure but clipped transients are IMO and to my ear very much audible in comparison to a lower powered or inadequately damped amp ..
There are many afficiaodos of low powered amps on this board .. to each his own .. I like dynamics and I certainly can hear the difference ..
And please link me to the $50,000 high end system using panel speakers or large arrays and low powered amps ..
Or to a musician who uses 10 watt amps ...

We will forever disagree ...
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I'm with @spark1 on this one, I have directly compared very high power amps with low power amps and never hear the differences you speak of at my listening levels (all amplifiers used within their limitations). I have heard it before when people are trying to push a system past its ability, but that is not what we are discussing.
 
Akustic said:
You've asked me this repeatedly in a variety of threads and the answer is always the same ..
Instantaneous power requirements are virtually impossible to measure but clipped transients are IMO and to my ear very much audible in comparison to a lower powered or inadequately damped amp ..
There are many afficiaodos of low powered amps on this board .. to each his own .. I like dynamics and I certainly can hear the difference ..
And please link me to the $50,000 high end system using panel speakers or large arrays and low powered amps ..
Or to a musician who uses 10 watt amps ...

We will forever disagree ...
Evening ..
Click to expand...

As I said in my initial response, sound quality will improve with more power if the signal is being clipped. Sounds like you agree with me

If it is not, additional power is irrelevant by definition, because it is unused.

Damping is not related to power capability.

Regarding your comment about low power aficionados; first, I am not one. This is because my speakers are of low sensitivity. Second, it is patently ridiculous to suggest that those who use lower powered amps don't appreciate dynamics, since they can achieve exactly the same "dynamics" as those using higher-powered amps, assuming appropriately matched speakers.



 
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spark1 said:
As I said in my initial response, sound quality will improve with more power if the signal is being clipped. Sounds like you agree with me

If it is not, additional power is irrelevant by definition, because it is unused.

Damping is not related to power capability.
Click to expand...

Back to the same old definition of clipping that we always argue about ...
You want it measurable, and I say there is an instantaneous clipping that can't be measured, but is audible ..
We've been here before ..

Some people like the dynamics that more than adequate power brings .. some don't need it..
There are just two camps and given anything other than the most highly efficient speakers available, I'll listen with a bigger amp please..
..
 
BilboBaggins said:
The OP stated in the title that these are power hungry speakers he is asking about. To me, that means they are likely 4 Ohm speakers.



As has been mentioned earlier, it depends.

But, if you are asking about low impedance speakers, then yes, you most certainly will hear improvement in sound if you throw a higher power amplifier at it. You will hear even better sound if it is a high current amplifier. If your amp isn't already clipping, you should still hear a deeper, more defined bass.

Let me give you an example. I have been using Kef speakers for years. In January, I upgraded from Kef 105 to Kef 107s. I have been using both sets of speakers with my Bose 1801s. Lots of current in these beasts! The transformer weighs half the 88 lbs of the amp! Its a monster!

Both sets of speakers sound great with the Bose, although I can see on the meters that the 107s are more power hungry than the 105s. So in order to power the 107s in their new home on the main floor, I brought in my Yamaha M40 amplifier to drive them temporarily until my son-in-law gets a chance to come over and give me a hand move the Bose 1801. The Yamaha M40 is a high current amp rated up to 120 WPC and with the ability to drive 3 pairs of speakers simultaneously, provided you are using 2 pairs of 4 ohm speakers and 1 pair of 8 ohm speakers. The Kef 107 sound pretty good with the M40, but I can hear the strain when I crank it up a little. I know the Bose 1801 will drive them effortlessly. I would be curious to hear what they sound like with a 500 WPC high current amp. I image the sweet spot would be even better!

BTW, I love large 4 ohm speakers and I've been using them for over 12 years..
Click to expand...

I've not noticed any tight relationship between speaker sensitivity and impedance.

The notion that a "big" amp, in and of itself, will improve sound quality of low impedance speakers, seems highly questionable to me.
 
Akustic said:
Back to the same old definition of clipping that we always argue about ...
You want it measurable, and I say there is an instantaneous clipping that can't be measured, but is audible ..
We've been here before ..

Some people like the dynamics that more than adequate power brings .. some don't need it..
There are just two camps and given anything other than the most highly efficient speakers available, I'll listen with a bigger amp please..
..
Click to expand...

I've said nothing about measurability one way or the other.

So how much power is needed to avoid this magic transient? 20dB of headroom? 30dB? In any case, once it is accommodated, there is no more clipping...right? Would you maintain that additional power beyond THAT level provides additional benefit?

If power is "more than adequate", it seems to me that the capability beyond adequacy becomes irrelevant. Otherwise, you would seem to be saying that unused power somehow affects the signal.

EDIT - If what you are saying is that you prefer more power than is necessary vs not enough, so as to reduce the chances of any clipping of the signal, I tend to agree. I have the same preference (within the constraints of my finances). But that is not really the topic of this thread. The OP asked if a bigger amp will make his speakers sound better than they do with a lower powered amp. The answer is yes, if his lower powered amp is not capable of delivering a clean (unclipped) signal at his listening level. Otherwise, the answer is no.

There are certainly other variables which may or may not be pertinent to getting better sound quality from his speakers; for example, the amp's ability to deliver current into a difficult load. But this ability is not a function of rated power. There are "smaller" amps with very stiff power supplies, and "big" amps with loose ones. And, the importance of the ability is situational; it may provide small benefit, huge benefit or no benefit, depending upon the speakers.
 
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spark1 said:
I've said nothing about measurability one way or the other.

So how much power is needed to avoid this magic transient? 20dB of headroom? 30dB? In any case, once it is accommodated, there is no more clipping...right? Would you maintain that additional power beyond THAT level provides additional benefit?

If power is "more than adequate", it seems to me that the capability beyond adequacy becomes irrelevant. Otherwise, you would seem to be saying that somehow unused power somehow affects the signal.
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Seems like a rational analysis to me. Certainly more rational than the existence of unmeasurable clipping. Oscilloscopes can easily work up to megahertz. The top end of the audio spectrum is generally accepted to be 20kHz. It doesn't seem reasonable that clipping would be unmeasurable.
 
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Clipping occurs when the amplifier's power supply is driven past the point of supplying its own power output devices with adequate power. At that point, the power becomes "clipped" and results in a DC output. It is a battle between power output, speaker impedance and speaker efficiency. Usually, a 4 ohm speaker will double an amplifier's power from an 8 output. Every 3 db of efficiency will also double the amplifiers power. That is why many highly efficient horn speakers are driven to high levels with what are called "flea" watt amplifiers. They have very high efficiency while having lower impedance curves.
 
Listening a lower levels can be quite satisfying for many reasons. Distortion levels are lower any noise on the recording won't be as easily revealed, the bass frequencies will be rolled off as will to a lesser extent the highs either of which can become annoying and will mask other frequencies that the listener might not want to be covered . Even with my in-efficient speakers of 88 db 1 meter with 1 watt most of the time I listen at 2 watt levels with some where around 10 to 20 watt peaks that would be 101 db at 1 meter. But unlike point source speakers losing 6 db every time the distance is doubled my line arrays it is between 3 or 4 db. So At 14.5 feet . 4.4 meters I loose around 7 db where others might loose 13 db. So that would mean 94 db which is quite loud and 2 watts would be about 84 db. AR Speakers were rated any where from 84 to 86 db at 4 ft 1 watt back in the 60's and 70's. So at 10 ft lets say your listening level would be around 75 db and 10 watts 85 db, which is considered average for most consumer listeners. Professional sound people tend to listen any where from 90 to 95 db levels, which would require 100 watts. . While Klipsch Corn wall owners could reach those levels with 2 or slightly more watts. Amps are more likely to be more linear at 1 to 20 watt levels for most consumers as compared to having to produce 100 watts which is a lot for most consumer owners recievers and integrated amps. . Yes there are lots of amps capable of producing more power but that requires significantly more dollars most of the time. If you will look at the hearing frequency response curves for the human ear you will see levels have to reach into the 90 to 95 db level in order for the ear to have a fairly linear perception curve for all frequencies. Some folks do much better because they have trained them selves so they don't need to reach those levels. Women are usually much more perceptive than men are because they haven't damaged their hearing in their professions or at home as men have serving in the Military or their jobs.


So there are solutions to this your dilemma. Train your self to be sensitive to what you are hearing, make sure there is no other ambient noise to break your concentration while listening and learn to enjoy the reduction of bass and a bit highs revealing more details at no cost to you. Or buy more efficient speakers or up to a point larger amps. Early AR speakers were rated about 35 watts RMS which gives you some margin for peaks. Later models close to 100 rms watts again allowing to have more power for peaks, but for peaks only.

During this time of struggles you are going through you need to decide what type of listening gives you the most satisfaction. If you can learn to live with lower levels by training your self thats great. But if you justifiably decide you need more you are going to have study and audition equipment that will allow to reach that state of satisfaction you seek. I have been at this for close to 60 years and all through that time its been a learning process about myself, the sound quality I strive for and what equipment I can afford to reach those goals I wish you luck in your journey. Take your time and think before you leap. The search is half the fun of getting to your final listening plateau. There is a lot of great pieces of equipment out there for you to discover. Good luck
 
opnly bafld said:
So which is more "power hungry" 84dB - 8 ohm speakers or 96dB - 4ohm speakers?
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I don't know. I've never tried comparing the two. I spent years trying to find "the sound". Trust me, I wanted to like the lower power systems, such as a Sansui AU-D9 I had, and even comparing it with good 8 ohm speakers, they didn't come close to what I was getting with 4 ohm speakers and a high current amp. I don't worry about it. I know what gives me good sound. If someone asks if there is a difference using a high current amp with low impedance speakers, I will most definitely chime in. I hear it. I know others don't. But if he does, he will appreciate the input. It will save him from spending a lot of money unnecessarily. It is just a matter of approaching it from a different angle.

I don't really pay attention to sensitivity of a speaker. It doesn't have much relevance for me except that I need to adjust the power amp and the preamp to find the sweet spot. I do have Klipsch Cornwalls, and I heard a difference when using a McIntosh MA-6200 vs using an MC2205. My wife hears it too.
 
HamptonT said:
If I typically listen at low volume, what would a larger wattage amp do for “power hungry” speakers? For instance, I’ve read that a person with AR9’s fed them with a 250 WPC amp and he said they could still take more. How do you know? How do you know that they need more power? Unless you do the obvious which is crank them to 11?
What I’m trying to get at is… will a larger amp make them sound better at low volume, too?
Thanks.
Click to expand...

If your speakers are making the amp clip at the volume levels at which you listen you need more power.
 
Akustic said:
There's a reason why truly high end systems do not use low powered amps .. Available power improves system dynamics ..
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Many first rate systems use very low power amps such as 45s and 2A3s and highly sensitive speakers. And I had excellent sound powering Martin Logan Vista electrostat-dynamic hybrids ( not very sensitive speakers) with a 45 wpc EL34 amp and also had surprisingly good sound with those speakers and a 10 wpc EL84 amp.

Note that many speakers suffer severe compression and past a certain point are taking in more power but not getting any louder. When the drivers in a multi-way speaker don't compress at the same rate the result can be a change in tone as volume increases. The best way to get good dynamics is to first get a speaker capable of good dynamics, then use an appropriate amplifier, which may or may not be a high powered one.
 
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rothwellaudio said:
Lots of guitarists use low powered amps such as Fender Champs or Pignose etc., but that's an entirely different scenario to hi-fi. I'm not sure what the relevance is.
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Guitarists.. yes, and especially for practice amps ..
And for the same reasons of superior midrange tone, I use tube amps also, but bi-amped with higher powered Solid State amps for the bass notes ..and ultimately system dynamics.
The same is not true for bass players ..

Point being that any low powered amp that I've ever used lacks definition and dynamics in the bass compared to the higher powered amps ..
 
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