Pre out levels seems lower than published specs on my Marantz receiver

[lattiboy]

Hi all,

I have a split HT/2ch system. For music it’s an external DAC into the analog CD input of a Marantz SR6012 which has analog pre outs feeding an Onkyo M-504 power amp.

As a test, I hooked up a Onkyo P304 preamp being fed the same DAC to the M-504. Conservatively it’s 2-3 times louder at matching volume levels as the Marantz, even though on paper it only outputs 1v vs. the Marantz 1.2v pre outs. I’m running the Marantz in “pure direct” mode most the time to bypass as much of the DSP as I can for music listening. However, even if I do run it with Audyssey on in Music mode, it's still only slightly louder than in pure direct, and about half as loud as the Onkyo vintage preamp.

I could be missing a fundamental piece of information about modern A/V receivers, but the volume disparity if so large I can't quite figure it out!

PS I also had a Denon 3500H that was similarly quiet, so I don’t think it’s an issue with my receiver specifically.

 

[opnly bafld]

You can't compare 2 different pieces volume control position and draw any conclusions about output.
The P304 has a max output of 6 volts.
I could not find the max out for front preamp on the Marantz, but it is probably more than 1.2 volts (rated output).

 

[lattiboy]

You can't compare 2 different pieces volume control position and draw any conclusions about output.
The P304 has a max output of 6 volts.
I could not find the max out for front preamp on the Marantz, but it is probably more than 1.2 volts (rated output).

Ugh, I read the specs in my manual wrong! Thanks for correction.

I understand the volume position is arbitrary as a measurement between devices, but the fact I have to sometimes get to 70 (out of 100) on my Marantz to achieve what roughly 1/3 volume achieves on the P304 is strange to me. I guess if the gain is correctly controlled this doesn’t matter....

Obviously I’m not going to go to 100% with either for fear of damage to my ears and my speakers, but I’d like to know why Onkyo had their matching preamplifier to my amp tuned so “hot”. Is it possible the Marantz is a bad match for the amp?

 

[whoaru99]

Just a difference of internal gain structure that's all. All long as you can turn either one to the level you want (within the capability of the amp, speakers, etc.) there isn't anything to be concerned about.

Bear in mind also the HT side of things is a calibrated system. It is trying to target a specific SPL (105dB peak) with the volume at the 0dB position based off the Dolby test tone level used for the calibration process.

It's not that the Marantz is a bad match, it just "is" what it is when it comes to surround processors/receivers. You have to turn the knob a lot more than the typical vintage gear where it's damn near full throttle with relatively little motion of the volume knob.

 

[opnly bafld]

Marantz is fine as long as you get the spl you desire.
Onkyo might seem "hot" with what I assume is a 2 volt output DAC, but with a lower output source the extra gain would be welcome.

Edit: posted just after whoaru99, did not see his post.

 

[lattiboy]

Thanks all, that completely answers my question!

The idea of the receiver going for a specific SPL instead of just going full power all the time makes total sense and explains why switching out amps (which I’ve done a few times now) doesn’t make a big impact on relative volume level.

 

[PianotunerNJ]

I’m not sure about the Marantz, except that I think they are simi,ar to Denon. I have an X3500H too, and I noticed that it’s levels are generally low. I also found that there’s a level adjustment that needs to be adjusted for each input, but you can jack every channel I think 12db up or down. Obviously, I raised everything as high as possible. Check for a similar adjustment, it made my X3500H much hotter although I did not test that on the line outs, but it should work since the adjustment seems to be on the input side.

 

[lattiboy]

I’m not sure about the Marantz, except that I think they are simi,ar to Denon. I have an X3500H too, and I noticed that it’s levels are generally low. I also found that there’s a level adjustment that needs to be adjusted for each input, but you can jack every channel I think 12db up or down. Obviously, I raised everything as high as possible. Check for a similar adjustment, it made my X3500H much hotter although I did not test that on the line outs, but it should work since the adjustment seems to be on the input side.

I had the 3500 also and it’s very similar to the 6012. My concern is adding unnecessary distortion. I basically don’t know which is the better to do in practice: Up the gain on the receiver input or increase the volume.

This is mostly academic as I can just push the volume farther, but the discrepancy between the P304 and my Marantz seemed extreme...

 

[whoaru99]

I’m not sure about the Marantz, except that I think they are simi,ar to Denon. I have an X3500H too, and I noticed that it’s levels are generally low. I also found that there’s a level adjustment that needs to be adjusted for each input, but you can jack every channel I think 12db up or down. Obviously, I raised everything as high as possible. Check for a similar adjustment, it made my X3500H much hotter although I did not test that on the line outs, but it should work since the adjustment seems to be on the input side.

Hmmm...if you're using it for a HT system, jacking all the levels to +12 would f-up your calibration, unless you're extremely lucky that every speaker requires the exact same level?

 

[PianotunerNJ]

No, post calibration you are presented with an equalized level they present to you as the flat baseline. From there you can custom manipulate all speakers and subwoofers up or down in level relative to each other. If you lower or raise them all together you’re not screwing with the balance of the calibration.

 

[PianotunerNJ]

And I’m not hearing any distortion raising the levels, just louder. Otherwise it feels anemic to me. Take notice though, it’s set flat to 0 fro every input, so you can/must adjust the levels on every input individually. Go to the input you want to adjust and with the Denon, in the options section from the remote, there’s a “channel level adjust” section. That’s it. I would try it to see if it helps up the output level of the line outs. Worth a shot and can’t hurt sounds like.

 

[whoaru99]

Just turn the volume knob more. Get over that vintage fear "it must be broke if it ain't rattling the dishes at "3"",

There are times with my setup where I actually go past 0dB into the +dB numbers. Not often mind you, but on occasion.

They just don't act the same, nor really expected to in that regard, as that other stuff. It's just inherently different. Not broken, not wrong; just different.

 

[PianotunerNJ]

Either way same result here.