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Prevent No-Load Failure of OPT (Outputs transformers) without speakers hooked

mroboto

Super Member
I did see in a thread about a Sansui receiver with headphones jack that for OPT protection when using headphones, they add a 510 ohms resistors at outputs.

So now in every tube amp I own I use one 2 or 3 watts 510 ohms resistor across each 0-8 ohms terminals, just to protect output transformer from damage in case a speaker wire disconnects while amp is playing sound.

The amps sound great, no real loss of power.

Recommended ? (I think so)

Any advice ?

I thought about to start a new thread even if we already have a discuss about that, maybe that will help.
 
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When an amp have a 16 ohms tap, recommended to install the resistor on the 16 ohms output ?

Higher resistance by 2X ?
 
Good question.... I was using my fisher allegro and the speaker wire became lose and I could hear some of the music coming out of the output transformer... Luckily it was all fixed in seconds so no damage was done.
 
Good question.... I was using my fisher allegro and the speaker wire became lose and I could hear some of the music coming out of the output transformer... Luckily it was all fixed in seconds so no damage was done.

I know that operating a tube amp (at high volume) with no load is bad for the output transformers because the excessive voltages can arc through the winding insulation, but how much of a problem is it really? I've worked on a lot of tube audio equipment, and I've never seen an output transformer that had failed from no load. The few bad ones I've seen were caused by the primary winding opening due to corrosion, or a defect in the wire. If the risk was as great as people say, it seems that fried output transformers would have been a common problem back when these were new.
 
Since it caused my transformer to act as partly as a speaker I wonder if long enough it would have overheated the output transformer... I didn't think about the arc issue thou.
 
I know that operating a tube amp (at high volume) with no load is bad for the output transformers because the excessive voltages can arc through the winding insulation, but how much of a problem is it really? I've worked on a lot of tube audio equipment, and I've never seen an output transformer that had failed from no load. The few bad ones I've seen were caused by the primary winding opening due to corrosion, or a defect in the wire. If the risk was as great as people say, it seems that fried output transformers would have been a common problem back when these were new.
In a push-pull amp it's not as much of a danger if no signal is applied, but with a single-ended amp it is a significant risk, OPT can fail in a very short time with no load. Speaker becoming disconnected seems like a low-likelihood scenario though, I just make sure to use a dummy load when working on it if not connected to speakers.
 
I did see in a thread about a Sansui receiver with headphones jack that for OPT protection when using headphones, they add a 510 ohms resistors at outputs.

So now in every tube amp I own I use one 2 or 3 watts 510 ohms resistor across each 0-8 ohms terminals, just to protect output transformer from damage in case a speaker wire disconnects while amp is playing sound.

The amps sound great, no real loss of power.

Recommended ? (I think so)

Any advice ?

I thought about to start a new thread even if we already have a discuss about that, maybe that will help.
It's a good advise. I would even go further and use 100 ohm 5w resistor across the 8 ohm taps.
At full power for a 50w amp 4w is lost in this resistor. This is to little to notice by ear but substantial difference from an open transformer output.

What happens with no load is dangerous, but it is very much more dangerous when/if the amp starts clipping.
And yes, i have replaced an output transformer due to open output.
 
I think I read that the voltage rise and rise to KV range in an OPT when signal input and there's nowhere to go out, and ends up breaking the insulation.

I remember @Retrovert or another AKer said that 510 ohms could or should work.

Maybe Sansui avoided use of a bigger resistor for that purpose, and that works using a small 510 ohms resistor.

If someone can read schematics and can confirm that was 510 ohms resistor on 8 ohms output, or 16 ohms ?

Maybe we better use a 250 ohms resistor on a 8 ohms tap to follow the same pattern as Sansui, and I don't know, not sure.
 
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In a push-pull amp it's not as much of a danger if no signal is applied, but with a single-ended amp it is a significant risk, OPT can fail in a very short time with no load. Speaker becoming disconnected seems like a low-likelihood scenario though, I just make sure to use a dummy load when working on it if not connected to speakers.
I don't really see how any transformer can be of an issue on DC level?
On DC level there is basically no transformer, doesn't matter if it's a SE or PP.
So as long as there is no signal level present, nothing really happens.
Only transients (fast changing signals) can be deadly!!!

I guess one other good way, would be to have some clamping diodes (MOVs) on the primary side.
 
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I think I read that the voltage rise and rise to KV range in an OPT when signal input and there's nowhere to go out, and ends up breaking the insulation. I remember @Retrovert or another AKer said that 510 ohms could or should work.

My suggestion for those unwilling to add flyback diodes or TVS diodes was to use a 470 Ω resistor.

This is pieced together from what I've previously written about placing a parallel resistor across the speaker terminals to avoid inductive kickback.

Why The Parallel Resistor

When the primary is pumped with energy the output transformer turns into an ignition coil. Somewhat simplified, because the transformer Secondary is unloaded the flux in the core gradually increases, but has no place to go. So the voltage climbs until current may flow, often as high as 2k V to 5k V, which then manifests as back EMF which then arcs in three places:
(1) Flashover arc between output transformer windings
(2) Flashover arc between the plate and other tube elements
(3) Flashover arc between the tube socket pins, usually plate to heater.​

Four situations can cause this type of arcing:
(1) Running (signal input to amplifier) speakers which become disconnected
(2) Running (signal input to amplifier) without any speakers connected
(3) Running (no signal input to amplifier) speakers which become disconnected
(4) Running (no signal input to amplifier) without any speakers connected​

Cases (1) and (2) obviously have a problem with energy being pumped into the Primary.

Cases (3) and (4) still have a problem because of (a) endogenous (amplifier-generated) noise and (b) the minor DC leaking into the Primary, which both pumps energy into the system and which, furthermore, may destabilize the feedback network, causing the amplifier to become unstable and pump more signal into the output transformer.

The result is the sound of a cash register, as you replace the output transformers and tubes. Even if the arc doesn't kill them the first time, it damages them and results in failure.

This is why large inductive loads, like DC relay coils and motors, use flyback diodes to dump the flux before it turns into high voltage kick and blows up the driving device.

Sizing the Parallel Resistor

The standard values for the resistor placed in parallel with the speaker are generally selected to be sufficiently high so as to:
(a) not significantly alter the overall load impedance, and thus not shift the load line (distortion)​
—and—
(b) not significantly divert power away from the speaker (wastes amplifier output as heat)​
but not so high as to cause amplifier instability. (More on this in a bit.)

TL/DR: The suggested value generally ranges from 220 to 470 Ω for speakers of 4 to 16 Ω.

Many ridiculous values, however, are bandied about on forums, apparently operating under the belief that current always flows through the lowest resistance in a circuit. That is a misunderstanding of physics and electrical engineering. For example, a lower value of 15 to 33 Ω is obviously unsuitable, as the overall impedance in parallel with 8 Ω would be approximately 5 Ω to 6.5 Ω. Even values of 100 Ω to 150 Ω, are unsuitable, as the impedance would be 7.41 to 7.59 Ω. Below set forth is the parallel resistance for various values to demonstrate the effects of various candidate values.

The reason the overall impedance matters is that an output transformer is an impedance matching device, so the impedance at the Secondary creates a specific load at the Primary, depending upon the Primary::Secondary ratio. Every tube has a particular range for the output resistance which yields the lowest distortion, and the amplifier designer (if competent) selects an output transformer to match the higher-impedance seen by the tube (typical values are 5,000 to 8,000 Ω) with the lower-impedance (4 to 16 Ω.) of the speaker. Stability may also be affected, and that is later discussed.

Consider the effect of paralleling various values:
680 Ω || 8 Ω = 7.91 Ω
470 Ω || 8 Ω = 7.87 Ω
220 Ω || 8 Ω = 7.72 Ω
150 Ω || 8 Ω = 7.59 Ω
100 Ω || 8 Ω = 7.41 Ω
33 Ω || 8 Ω = 6.44 Ω
15 Ω || 8 Ω = 5.22 Ω
​

The calculations for 16 Ω and 4 Ω are left as an exercise for the reader.

The practical difference between 680 Ω and 220 Ω is not, in practice, significant, particularly when consider that nominal speaker impedance is a fiction, particularly as the driver approaches resonance. So the change of 0.15 Ω is not significant being 1.875% ≈ 2%. But a change of 1.4 Ω in the speaker load is 18% and highly significant, and a change in 2.6 Ω is 33% and profound.

The obvious question arises: why not use 3,300 Ω to 4,700 Ω because that would yield a value of 7.99 Ω which appears to be perfect. Alas, no, this is a very, very bad idea. The fault, dear Flyback Bleeder, likes not in our resistor but in its reflected impedance. As above explained, output transformer is an impedance-matching device, presenting the output tubes with the optimal impedance for the tube's load line, which reduces distortion (tube is most linear) and optimizes the output power. When the speaker is disconnected the load is radically changed from, say, 8 Ω to, using a hypothetical. 4,700 Ω, and the tube's output may become severely distorted. Depending upon the design of the feedback network, when attempting to correct this distortion the amplifier may become unstable and oscillate, resulting in damage.

Superior Solutions

My suggestion of the resistor was for those who prefer to not modify the amplifier, but a superior approach, and one I have elsewhere discussed, is to both:
(a) Modify the amplifier with clamping diodes — engineering argot calls this a "clamping diode" but the amplifier vernacular labels it as a "protection diode" or "reverse diode" — reverse biased to the B+ supply, such that when the voltage at the primary climbs above the B+ supply the diode breaks down and conducts, thereby safely dissipating the energy. The diode must be rated for several kV as the inductive kickback may rapidly spike.

(b) Augment (a) with a solid-state Transient-Voltage-Suppression diode — aka TVS diode, also known as a "transil" or by the older name of "thyrector") acting much like a zener, across the primary and from each winding to the center-tap so as to conduct at the appropriate threshold and safely dissipate the energy. See, for example:
(An MOV is totally unsuitable as it has very limited number of cycles before it fails as a short. Each conduction burns a lower impedance path through the device. This is why the MOV must never be used in a socket strip. I've elsewhere posted links to safety cautions about the MOV and fires resulting from same.)​

Many refuse to add such protection claiming, "this could never happen because I always verifying speaker connections prior to turning on the amplifier". Uh-huh. Sure. Because "always" verifying a black swan event leads to abandoning such checks. That's just how humans behave, being very poor at always following procedures which are (a) not required (airplane or rocket pre-flight checks), (b) not written down, or (c) over-ruled by distractions. Humans may also not notice a wire has been pulled out, such as during vacuuming. This isn't an indictment of anyone, it's just a consequence of a simple fact: we're made out of meat and meat is a bad substrate for computation, and even worse for repetitive procedures, even when OCD is in play. I have seen so many statements about "I think I blew up my amp because I engaged in an unusual action where I..." to think that black-swan events cannot ever happen, because they do. Far too often.

The other argument is, "I don't want any sand in my amplifier." Uh, yeah, sure. Even when the device is not in the signal path and prevents, under dire situations, the total destruction of expensive, and often highly difficult to source, output transformers, output tubes, and other portions of the amplifier?

For best results the TL/DR is add clamping diodes and potentially a TVS. For fastest and easiest results use a resistor, but this is not guaranteed to be the best solution.
 
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My suggestion for those unwilling to add flyback diodes or TVS diodes was to use a 470 Ω resistor.

This is pieced together from what I've previously written about placing a parallel resistor across the speaker terminals to avoid inductive kickback.

Why The Parallel Resistor

When the primary is pumped with energy the output transformer turns into an ignition coil. Somewhat simplified, because the transformer Secondary is unloaded the flux in the core gradually increases, but has no place to go. So the voltage climbs until current may flow, often as high as 2k V to 5k V, which then manifests as back EMF which then arcs in three places:
(1) Flashover arc between output transformer windings
(2) Flashover arc between the plate and other tube elements
(3) Flashover arc between the tube socket pins, usually plate to heater.​

Four situations can cause this type of arcing:
(1) Running (signal input to amplifier) speakers which become disconnected
(2) Running (signal input to amplifier) without any speakers connected
(3) Running (no signal input to amplifier) speakers which become disconnected
(4) Running (no signal input to amplifier) without any speakers connected​

Cases (1) and (2) obviously have a problem with energy being pumped into the Primary.

Cases (3) and (4) still have a problem because of (a) endogenous (amplifier-generated) noise and (b) the minor DC leaking into the Primary, which both pumps energy into the system and which, furthermore, may destabilize the feedback network, causing the amplifier to become unstable and pump more signal into the output transformer.

The result is the sound of a cash register, as you replace the output transformers and tubes. Even if the arc doesn't kill them the first time, it damages them and results in failure.

This is why large inductive loads, like DC relay coils and motors, use flyback diodes to dump the flux before it turns into high voltage kick and blows up the driving device.

Sizing the Parallel Resistor

The standard values for the resistor placed in parallel with the speaker are generally selected to be sufficiently high so as to:
(a) not significantly alter the overall load impedance, and thus not shift the load line (distortion)​
—and—
(b) not significantly divert power away from the speaker (wastes amplifier output as heat)​
but not so high as to cause amplifier instability. (More on this in a bit.)

TL/DR: The suggested value generally ranges from 220 to 470 Ω for speakers of 4 to 16 Ω.

Many ridiculous values, however, are bandied about on forums, apparently operating under the belief that current always flows through the lowest resistance in a circuit. That is a misunderstanding of physics and electrical engineering. For example, a lower value of 15 to 33 Ω is obviously unsuitable, as the overall impedance in parallel with 8 Ω would be approximately 5 Ω to 6.5 Ω. Even values of 100 Ω to 150 Ω, are unsuitable, as the impedance would be 7.41 to 7.59 Ω. Below set forth is the parallel resistance for various values to demonstrate the effects of various candidate values.

The reason the overall impedance matters is that an output transformer is an impedance matching device, so the impedance at the Secondary creates a specific load at the Primary, depending upon the Primary::Secondary ratio. Every tube has a particular range for the output resistance which yields the lowest distortion, and the amplifier designer (if competent) selects an output transformer to match the higher-impedance seen by the tube (typical values are 5,000 to 8,000 Ω) with the lower-impedance (4 to 16 Ω.) of the speaker. Stability may also be affected, and that is later discussed.

Consider the effect of paralleling various values:
680 Ω || 8 Ω = 7.91 Ω
470 Ω || 8 Ω = 7.87 Ω
220 Ω || 8 Ω = 7.72 Ω
150 Ω || 8 Ω = 7.59 Ω
100 Ω || 8 Ω = 7.41 Ω
33 Ω || 8 Ω = 6.44 Ω
15 Ω || 8 Ω = 5.22 Ω
​

The calculations for 16 Ω and 4 Ω are left as an exercise for the reader.

The practical difference between 680 Ω and 220 Ω is not, in practice, significant, particularly when consider that nominal speaker impedance is a fiction, particularly as the driver approaches resonance. So the change of 0.15 Ω is not significant being 1.875% ≈ 2%. But a change of 1.4 Ω in the speaker load is 18% and highly significant, and a change in 2.6 Ω is 33% and profound.

The obvious question arises: why not use 3,300 Ω to 4,700 Ω because that would yield a value of 7.99 Ω which appears to be perfect. Alas, no, this is a very, very bad idea. The fault, dear Flyback Bleeder, likes not in our resistor but in its reflected impedance. As above explained, output transformer is an impedance-matching device, presenting the output tubes with the optimal impedance for the tube's load line, which reduces distortion (tube is most linear) and optimizes the output power. When the speaker is disconnected the load is radically changed from, say, 8 Ω to, using a hypothetical. 4,700 Ω, and the tube's output may become severely distorted. Depending upon the design of the feedback network, when attempting to correct this distortion the amplifier may become unstable and oscillate, resulting in damage.

Superior Solutions

My suggestion of the resistor was for those who prefer to not modify the amplifier, but a superior approach, and one I have elsewhere discussed, is to both:
(a) Modify the amplifier with clamping diodes — engineering argot calls this a "clamping diode" but the amplifier vernacular labels it as a "protection diode" or "reverse diode" — reverse biased to the B+ supply, such that when the voltage at the primary climbs above the B+ supply the diode breaks down and conducts, thereby safely dissipating the energy. The diode must be rated for several kV as the inductive kickback may rapidly spike.

(b) Augment (a) with a solid-state Transient-Voltage-Suppression diode — aka TVS diode, also known as a "transil" or by the older name of "thyrector") acting much like a zener, across the primary and from each winding to the center-tap so as to conduct at the appropriate threshold and safely dissipate the energy. See, for example:
(An MOV is totally unsuitable as it has very limited number of cycles before it fails as a short. Each conduction burns a lower impedance path through the device. This is why the MOV must never be used in a socket strip. I've elsewhere posted links to safety cautions about the MOV and fires resulting from same.)​

Many refuse to add such protection claiming, "this could never happen because I always verifying speaker connections prior to turning on the amplifier". Uh-huh. Sure. Because "always" verifying a black swan event leads to abandoning such checks. That's just how humans behave, being very poor at always following procedures which are (a) not required (airplane or rocket pre-flight checks), (b) not written down, or (c) over-ruled by distractions. Humans may also not notice a wire has been pulled out, such as during vacuuming. This isn't an indictment of anyone, it's just a consequence of a simple fact: we're made out of meat and meat is a bad substrate for computation, and even worse for repetitive procedures, even when OCD is in play. I have seen so many statements about "I think I blew up my amp because I engaged in an unusual action where I..." to think that black-swan events cannot ever happen, because they do. Far too often.

The other argument is, "I don't want any sand in my amplifier." Uh, yeah, sure. Even when the device is not in the signal path and prevents, under dire situations, the total destruction of expensive, and often highly difficult to source, output transformers, output tubes, and other portions of the amplifier?

For best results the TL/DR is add clamping diodes and potentially a TVS. For fastest and easiest results use a resistor, but this is not guaranteed to be the best solution.
I had planned on using 680 ohm resistors on the unused 16 ohm taps on the mono blocks I'm currently building. The feedback circuit will be moved from the 16 ohm tap to the 8 ohm tap just in case a speaker wire happens to become disconnected. The amp uses KT88's or 6550's. Here is the schematic.
 

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I find @Retrovert article well grounded (!) and enlightning. Maybe 270 ohm is enough on the 8 ohm tap ( and 100 a little restrictive). I do however find a permanent connected resistor a cheap and effective way of protecting from "open output danger".
 
I had planned on using 680 ohm resistors on the unused 16 ohm taps on the mono blocks I'm currently building. The feedback circuit will be moved from the 16 ohm tap to the 8 ohm tap just in case a speaker wire happens to become disconnected.

You won't be simultaneously operating the 8 Ω tap with a speaker and the 16 Ω tap with the bleeder resistor, correct?

Because parallel operation (current simultaneously flows through both portions, with the tap ratio controlling the relative current as per the multiplier) will alter the load line and may overload the common portion of the winding.
 
I find @Retrovert article well grounded (!) and enlightning.

Thanks.

Given that English is not your native language you receive quadruple points for that horrendous pun about lightning.

Maybe 270 ohm is enough on the 8 ohm tap ( and 100 a little restrictive). I do however find a permanent connected resistor a cheap and effective way of protecting from "open output danger".

270 Ω || 8 Ω = 7.77 Ω. So the difference between the 100 Ω (7.41 Ω) and 270 (7.77 Ω) is about 0.36 ≈ 0.4 Ω.

The crossover point varies as 1/R for capacitors and as R for inductors. So a 2,500 Hz point would shift by R1 / R2 = (7.77 / 8) = 2,428 Hz (≈ 3%) or (7.41 / 8) = 2,316 Hz (≈ 7%) .

Whether or not that becomes noticeable depends upon whether or not the speakers are Bose or Bozak.

If we honor the fiction of nominal impedance of drivers, and keep it holy, the best solution is adding flyback diodes. This completely prevents arcing (lightning, as you correctly point out), is not in the signal path so cannot add any distortion, and prevents shifting of the load line and power loss.

I love the smell of ozone from arcing in disconnected speakers; it smells like... a visit to eBay to purchase new output transformers. — Lt. Colonel Kirchoff, Audiophile Now.
 
I agree that flyback diodes will prevent overvoltage. But ( there is always a "but") a flyback diode that shorts will create a large current in the transformer, maybe destroying the transformer.
If flyback diodes are correctly dimensioned the probability for shorts are slim and i think acceptable. But recommending the general population this might cause more harm then salvage as both the engineering decisions and quality of components may be bad. A resistor on the other hand is a more forgivable and if it fails it is generally burning open ( thus no worse then before providing the load stays connected)

I have seen sparc-gaps in old phillips amps , a perhaps violent solution, this demands good precision of parts, and might be done today with Gas discharge tube https://www.bourns.com/products/cir...rrestors/2-electrode-gdts/high-voltage-series might be an alternative
given that B+ is fused and will break whenever the GDT triggers. Comments @Retrovert ?

Maybe the GDT is best installed plate to plate, when they fire no net current will flow from the powersupply.
 
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I've been able to piece together some technical discussion on OPT protection.

https://dalmura.com.au/static/Output transformer protection.pdf

Adding a light load has been used by many. Imho flyback diodes don't create a large current, and won't destroy a transformer, they merely divert the energy in the transient voltage spike to make a loop through the power supply and back to B+. Similarly a spark gap won't destroy an OPT. I reckon GDT's are a problem when trying to design in a protection device. Imho MOV's are much better at softly diverting energy remaining in a transient voltage peak (as the peak voltage gets pushed higher), and for a number of reasons. I recently pushed a 100W PP amplifier in to generating transient plate peaks beyond the normal clipped squarewave when there is no speaker side loading - it took a lot of over drive - I haven't yet integrated the test details in to the above discussion doc, but below are some pertinent scope plots that show anode voltage in orange (about 220V/div) and cathode current for one of a quad of 6L6GC in the output stage (blue trace at 100mA/div), where a 612Vdc min at 1mA rated MOV is across each half-primary winding, and B+ is about 500V.

https://www.dalmura.com.au/static/No load MOV protection example.pdf
 
Nice long story, except for the MOV part.
Although, also the impedance parallel part is more just textbook.
There is literally not a single speaker that is pure resistive and/or within these tolerances.
In fact, I have seen very little amount of people even compensating the impedance of the loudspeaker.

MOVs are even standard procedure and part of official safety regulations.
They are common practice in the most professional multimeters and such. (SMPS units etc).
According to UL/IEC regulators they are also more than fine to be used in a socket strip.
In fact, you're not even allowed to basically develop and manufacture any (switching) power supply without them.
And actually most of the time that is rather a good thing than a bad thing.
Many very reputable brands use MOVs to protect their (sometimes very expensive) equipment.
So I really read that part as just a personal taste about MOVs

Keep in mind that this is a worst case scenario.
So the total amount of surge events will be very small (well hopefully)
So MOVs are just self-sacrificial, which is totally fine in this example, since the event that this is going to happen is not very likely.
One could just use a couple of MOVs in parallel, they aren't so expensive these days.
Good practice is to have at least a (little) fuse in series with a MOV (there are even combos available)

The combination is probably a nice solution with MOVs as well as something like a 470 ohm resistor or so.
 
Most people's experience with MOV's is from mains AC side applications (and gruesome stories) - whereas their application to OPT's is very very different, and a good awareness of MOV performance and degradation characteristics is required to appreciate that MOV's can be chosen for this application such that there is no degradation at all (ie. they are not being asked to self-sacrifice like a fuse) as specified by the indefinite repetitive surge current capability. Appreciation is also needed of the fault conditions and the transient energy levels available - so it does depend on the OPT and its inductance characteristics that store energy and when, and the valves and how they may influence the fault current levels in the OPT windings. Not a simple walk in the park.
 
You won't be simultaneously operating the 8 Ω tap with a speaker and the 16 Ω tap with the bleeder resistor, correct?

Because parallel operation (current simultaneously flows through both portions, with the tap ratio controlling the relative current as per the multiplier) will alter the load line and may overload the common portion of the winding.
Correct. I'll only be using the 4 and 8ohm taps.
 
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