"Pro Gear" vs Home Audioee

[savatage1973]

I didn't even know they made power amps.

For a brief period of time DBX (before they fell under the Harman umbrella) did indeed make home audio gear. I have a tuner, preamp, CDP and 3 amps from that era. I also use the 224 Type II noise reduction units for tape and decoding DBX albums, and use a 120 for subwoofer management. DBX and Crown are probably the only two brands that Harman International hasn't destroyed, but they have relegated them to pro audio products only.

 

[whoaru99]

Very interesting thread read. I must say that I've run pro and home amps. Both sound very nice however I believe there's a reason why one never sees pro-amps at audio shows. Though, I believe Bryston will show either/or/both at these shows....could be wrong however I do not think so.
...

I believe there is a reason too, but it might not be the same reason.

Here is a bit from the late Brian Cheney of VMPS, speaking about a QSC PL236 pro amp he used at a CES show to drive the low end of a system -

Brian Cheney:
...the amp provided detail, definition, extension and dynamic impact which put every other audiophile amp--Class A, AB, C, and D--I have ever tried to shame. Yes that includes big Krells and Levinsons, my Plinius 250/IV, the BBQ, and everything else. Everything else.

...

Scoff scoff, you scoff. Okay, don't believe me, I have no connection to QSC, and you'd have to go to a pro audio shop to buy one (the usual discounts are available). There's several smaller models, down to 150W/ch and about $1200 retail, but the big guy (PL 236) is the smoothest and most listenable in the long term. If you've never biamped and your speaker allows it, this is a way to go. The bass quality is absolutely amazing, a new standard for any kind of amplification.

As a side note, I happen to own this amp. Not one like it but the amp Brian used.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

Also, Pro amplifiers must be rugged, reliable always under heavy abuse, idiot resistant, if not idiot proof.

 

[BMWCCA]

For a brief period of time DBX (before they fell under the Harman umbrella) did indeed make home audio gear. I have a tuner, preamp, CDP and 3 amps from that era. I also use the 224 Type II noise reduction units for tape and decoding DBX albums, and use a 120 for subwoofer management. DBX and Crown are probably the only two brands that Harman International hasn't destroyed, but they have relegated them to pro audio products only.

Other than a rather brief foray into consumer products—meaning RCA amp inputs, etc, on the StraightLine and PowerLine products—Crown has never marketed their amps directly for home use, and those were actually thinly "disguised" pro amps, anyway (though the SL-2 and PSL pre-amps are fantastic and I own two of them). It was their dealers who offered them back in the '60s and '70s as alternatives to the more expensive McIntosh and that ilk who brought Crown the recognition it always deserved. I've used Crown amps, almost exclusively, since purchasing my first D150 before heading off to college in the early '70s. I have, and use, D150A-II, DC300A-II, PS200, PS400, and Studio Reference-II. I also have JBL-Urei 6260, Carver, and Soundcraftmen amps. I always recommend separates to someone starting an audiophile journey, and Crown is an inexpensive gateway to high-fidelity. Always has been, too!

PS: I fondly remember taking my D150 to a McIntosh Clinic in St. Louis—along with my Mac C20 pre-amp—and the comments from Dave O'Brien when the Crown's distortion graph was lower than any Mac amp they'd tested that day! He said, "That's one fine amplifier." Or something like that. It was, after all, 45-years ago.

 

[SVI2004A]

The WP-9440 certainly will stand up to the Pepsi challenge.... had these pushing 4 ohms in bridge under high output without any issue at all.... picked up 7 of these from usedlighting.com at 150USD a piece.... bang for buck.... YOU BET. Shipping was not so cheap due to enormous weight. But what you pay for home stereo can single endedly out cost the whole lot.

Also have a crown CE2000 but the Ramsa WP-9440 amps have a lot more aplomb

 

[sberger]

Easier to blow a tweeter with too little power than it is with too much! If it sounds bad, turn it down!

Of course you're right, but I never get near clipping with the 400. I can get plenty loud(for me) getting the volume up to 9 o'clock. Again, size of room and volume preference has a lot to do with it.

That said, the Crown XLS1000 sounds great with the 3's, particularly combined with a tube pre that Inuse with it.

 

[whoaru99]

Firstly, congratulations regarding your acquisition of Brian's amp.
You and Brian are 100% right regarding the use of pro-amps for driving the low end but what was he using to drive the highs? What would his position be for driving a total system and not simply the low end.
I don't think one would get terrible sound from a PA/Industrial amp however I feel one would get a better sound reproduction from, a or most, home amps.

Yeah, if I had no basis of comparison probably it would be easy to get on board with that concept. But, having some mid level amps and some reasonably high-end amps for basis of comparison, I feel modestly qualified to opine otherwise.

 

[sberger]

Yeah, if I had no basis of comparison probably it would be easy to get on board with that concept. But, having some mid level amps and some reasonably high-end amps for basis of comparison, I feel modestly qualified to opine otherwise.

I have to agree with this.

 

[sberger]

I mean really? I'm not, and was never, trying to get into an argument here - heck even posted earlier on - agreeing with another and using Bryston as one example...

Not getting on board with any concept at all. Just out of curiosity, what makes you think I've never used or tried industrial/commercial amps before simply for asking questions and outlining differences between PA/Commercial amplification and home isn't jumping onto any concept

I beg there's a good reason why all, or the vast majority of, "audiophile" amplification are home and why some companies produce a home product and industrial use amplification? And a very good reason why Brian stated he used the commercial amps to drive specifically the - low end. Of course there are differences between the two.

I'm guessing if there were no distinguishable differences Jeff Rowland, Pass Labs, Conrad Johnson and many other would be out of business and everyone would using low cost pa/indust/commercial amps.....

As I said previously, Industrial/Commercial amps can, and do sound, very nice in many cases however if one swaps out their big Peavey for a Nakamichi Status they'd hear the differences....

Regards from the North...

Marketing plays a huge role in what people decide to do. Crown, QSC, etc,, do not market their products for home audio use. But that doesn't mean that they aren't up for the task. Of course, it depends on the individual, but I would've never even considered a pro amp for home use with my AR3's until one of, if not the, foremost expert on all things AR gave a hearty recommendation for the Crown XLS line, saying that it was as good as any of his "audiophile" amps at driving the quite difficult to drive loads that the big AR speakers require. Since they're so reasonably priced, I figured there was no risk. Suffice to say I was flabbergasted when I heard it. Easily as good as my Adcom GFA 5400 and Yamaha M4, both what I consider to be excellent amps. It is completely neutral, as a good amp should be, and just goes about it's business providing clear, accurate, powerful sound.

I'm not trying to argue with you either. But I do think if more people did give these pro amps a chance(particularly with harder to drive speakers)without any, or as little, preconceived bias as possible, I do think there would be a fair amount of audio lovers who would opt for the cheaper, yet every bit as good pro amp over the ones from the companies you mentioned. But that is an unlikely scenario. Too much bias and too much value placed on the name, and the cost, of the equipment. So be it.

 

[whoaru99]

...
I'm guessing if there were no distinguishable differences Jeff Rowland, Pass Labs, Conrad Johnson and many others would be out of business and everyone would using low cost pa/indust/commercial amps from out of business night clubs.....

...

There are many reasons why people buy the things they do. Performance differences, whether real or perceived, are just one part of the big picture.

 

[bowtie427ss]

low cost pa/indust/commercial amps.....

Some of us are not referring to cheap entry level dreck built by 3rd world laborers under communist rule. We're referring to quality professional grade equipment that when purchased new cost easily as much or more than the home targeted gear it's being compared to.

The single biggest difference between true pro gear and home targeted gear has not yet been mentioned, and it has EVERYTHING to do with cost.

Pro gear works for a living. It is purchased as an investment in a "for profit" venture. Well engineered pro gear inserted in a profitable business model often pays for itself within the first 20% of it's warranty period. How many Rowland and Conrad Johnson components have done that?

I own several pro amps, and there was nothing low cost about them from the MSRP to the component quality to the build quality. That any of them came to me or any other second owner at a low cost is purely a result of the amplifiers having faithfully served their original application.

 

[RickeyM]

I have a BGW 750D and these were made around 1975. I don't know the history of it but it's got the Pro-Amp battle scars to prove it's been used that way. The only thing I had to do was clean the contacts in the speaker relay. These amps were designed to be extremely neutral sounding and after approximately forty years, it's still doing it. I did swap in a quieter fan but that had nothing to do with basic operation. I know the big BGW lacks some of the sophistication and finesse of very good Home Audio amps (I've owned a McCormack DNA 0.5 Deluxe Edition) but not by much. BTW, the BGW 750D cost me less that what many high end power cables cost

 

[E-Stat]

There are many reasons why people buy the things they do. Performance differences, whether real or perceived, are just one part of the big picture.

Absolutely. It's a matter of different priorities. Today, pro amps must focus on some practical considerations that are largely irrelevant in a home environment such as:

1. High power / cost ratio
2. Small footprint in terms of rack size
2. Low power consumption and heat output
3. Ability to drive 1 ohm bins
4. Built in DSP and crossovers

I purchased a used Crown switcher for the garage system. Since the system lives in a closet, I needed cool operation and enjoy the high output it offers.. Fan noise isn't noticeable. While it has a built in digital crossover, I don't use that feature. It would be, however, very useful for those using them to drive subwoofers providing a selectable low pass filter.

The trade off from the previous NAD amp for the same money is compromised high frequency response. While it is clear and not overtly distorted, it lacks the natural sense of extension and air you find in superior amplifiers. Upper harmonics sound if they hit a brick wall.

 

[Leben]

Out of curiousity, what model/models are your JBL UREI amplifiers? Sorry if I missed it.

 

[Longaevus]

Since I got into audio that I have always been very skeptical about thousand dollar "audiophile" amps delivering better sound quality than PA stuff that can be get for much lower prices for the same or much higher power output but then again I have never owned such expensive audiophile stuff.

I always conceptualize this "audiophile sounds better than PA" argument as if the speakers were shooting imaginary sound artifacts that come out of them in different shapes and colors according to what the amplifier tells them to do and if an amp tells them to shood pink circles we will like more how it sounds compared to an amp that makes the speakers produce green triangles or red squares... but then I remind myself that all that is happening is that a certain amount of power measured in watts is being pushed against a crossover which then works out the proper way to distribute and apply it.

All this to say that I am a firm believer that speakers are the main culprits for differences in sound especially when a proper amp, in terms of the required wattage and "muscle", is used to drive them. Of course that if a certain amp circuitry does not provide the demanded/required specs for a specific pair of speakers, the sound will not be as pleasant as an amp that does but at the end of the day that definitely does not mean an amp is "better" or "worse" it just means one needs to find the best chemistry between components. There should be a couple of blind tests results online for anyone to read such as this one.

I am positively sure that, just like many audio myths that roam free in our minds today, there are probably no audible differences between audiophile and PA amps but "Mark Levinson" or "Bryston" sounds much more serious than "Behringer" or "QSC" and they sure look much, much better in a living room...

 

[Ross6860]

Out of curiousity, what model/models are your JBL UREI amplifiers? Sorry if I missed it.

I have a pair of 6260s good for 150 wpc each @ 8 ohms, 300 wpc each @ 4 ohms. They weigh 45 pounds each.

Bridged at 600 watts into 8 ohms.

Input sensitivity is 1.1 V for full power into 8 ohms.

There is a dual-mono mode for bi-amping. One attenuator controls one output, the second attenuator controls the other. Could also be useful for running stacked speakers if you are into that.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

Some of us are not referring to cheap entry level dreck built by 3rd world laborers under communist rule. We're referring to quality professional grade equipment that when purchased new cost easily as much or more than the home targeted gear it's being compared to.

The single biggest difference between true pro gear and home targeted gear has not yet been mentioned, and it has EVERYTHING to do with cost.

Pro gear works for a living. It is purchased as an investment in a "for profit" venture. Well engineered pro gear inserted in a profitable business model often pays for itself within the first 20% of it's warranty period. How many Rowland and Conrad Johnson components have done that?

I own several pro amps, and there was nothing low cost about them from the MSRP to the component quality to the build quality. That any of them came to me or any other second owner at a low cost is purely a result of the amplifiers having faithfully served their original application.

Indeed, very well put! Pro gear's emphasis is on no nonsense, reliable, well behaved, well protected amplification. These units are being used in failure is no option, often driven hard, paying customer environments. The emphasis is put on engineering and build quality on the better pro amplifiers. Styling and chic high end last ounce of performance is not on the mind of the design engineers of these amplifiers. They must perform to high levels and to take abuse and difficult conditions without failing. In short, NO NONSENSE! Crown and QSC examples also happen to sound very excellent even in domestic home environments.

 

[Leben]

I have a pair of 6260s good for 150 wpc each @ 8 ohms, 300 wpc each @ 4 ohms. They weigh 45 pounds each.

Bridged at 600 watts into 8 ohms.

Input sensitivity is 1.1 V for full power into 8 ohms.

There is a dual-mono mode for bi-amping. One attenuator controls one output, the second attenuator controls the other. Could also be useful for running stacked speakers if you are into that.

I don't have any experience with those but they seem to get favorable reviews. I wouldn't hesitate at all to try one out in one of my systems. Very nice, enjoy.

Here is my favorite Pro amp that I'm currently using in a tri-amped system.

 

[freQ(*)Oddio]

absolutely the difference in power amps is the voltage "waiting" to be received at the pro audio levels, qsc, crown exc pro amps inputs need approx. 1.25 v to sound natural and produce advertised wattage,......your receiver or home audio pre amp is approx. .75 volts . ......a pro audio mixer or any other pro equipment is 1.25v feeding the full input sensitivity of the pro power amp. most pro amps are always running below voltage in a home stereo situation, you may not hear this diff, but your gain knobs are turned further than should be ,sound is well......ok check the amps sensitivity match to what is feeding it. how do you fix this. pretty cheap, a dual channel ART studio tube pre amp 1-$200 I used to fine tune sensitivity between pre amp and pro amp, you don't know what ur missing if voltage to pro amp is weak.

 

[damacman]

Easier to blow a tweeter with too little power than it is with too much! If it sounds bad, turn it down!

Unfortunately it just isn't true. However the opposite is.