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Question about DIY sub crossover

toxcrusadr

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I've got this big vintage passive sub (M&K Double Bottom End) with 2x12" drivers each with dual 4 ohm voice coils. I've refoamed it and it's working great. I'm putting together a passive crossover so I can pair it with satellites like NHT Super Zero (actually have a pair borrowed from Tyella). For now I'm going to use a single amp to drive everything. (if I ever find the Behringer active crossover I bought awhile back and misplaced, I'll biamp the thing).

I planned a simple 2d order crossover with a 12 mH inductor in series and a 100 uf cap across the driver. Times two for the L and R sub drivers.

Then I got to thinking that there is no high-pass filter in line with the satellites. Do I need to put a cap on the output of the crossover to keep low bass out of the satellites? They of course have their own crossovers but there is nothing to limit the input on the low end. The Super Zero has an overall impedance that peaks at 12.5 ohms at 100 Hz, and drops gradually to about 10.5 ohms at 10 Hz. Its response is down 10 db at 70 Hz and -20 db at 30 Hz. So it's not putting out much, but it seems it would be a parallel impedance of 10-12 ohms in parallel with the sub's impedance (let's assume 8 ohms, I don't have the curve). So it would take in part of the low end and not do much with it.

Seems like I need a cap in line with the HF output of the crossover.
 
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The speakers are mechanically limited so most of the subwoofer output cannot be reproduced by the existing main speakers, and we don't hear all that well at very low frequencies so the comb artifacts may not be particularly noticeable.

The big issue, of course, is that inserting a giant electrolytic — a 200 µF capacitor is expensive in polypropylene, and one would need at least two such units, one for each channel — is going to add all manner of non-linear distortion and rectification effects, particularly at frequencies above 1k Hz where the electrolytics speed is quite poor. So any such capacitor would need to be bypassed with smaller capacitors to improve the performance.

A lower-distortion, and thus "better" for whatever meaning of better one might choose to apply, approach might be to use a separate plate amplifier for the subwoofer and then just cut the low frequencies on the front end.
 
There seem to be two schools of thought about this.
1) Leave the main speakers to run just as they would without a sub.
2) High pass filter the main speakers and let the sub handle everything below a chosen frequency.

My favoured option is the second one. It means the main speakers are doing less work, the cones aren't moving as far (bass frequencies require greater forward/backward travel) and therefore they suffer less distortion. It keeps the midrange noticeably cleaner in my experience.

The big problem you have with passive filters operating around 60Hz or so is the huge inductors and capacitors required. They're big and expensive. The cheap options mean inductors with a high resistance and electrolytic caps. That would be ok in the short term but I think I'd want to go for an active crossover eventually.
 
^^ Yes.

Looks like it will be fine to try this with just the low-pass to the sub and run the sats wide open based on Retro's post. Makes a lot of sense. I do prefer an active crossover and a separate amp. This is a vintage and kind of historical sub, it was nearly the first sub offered for home audio, so I don't really want to cut a big hole in the back to install a plate amp. But I could easily use a separate amp and an active crossover for it. For now I just want to get it hooked up and running.
 
Build a small frame/box for the plate amp. It doesn't have to be in the same box as the sub driver.
 
Those "woofers" in the NHTs do a lot of moving for little actual output below ~100Hz. I would I hi-pass them, but I'd not put a bunch into film caps if it's just temporary 'til you find the electronic crossover.
 
Yes, it will be fine, but how does it make a lot of sense?

Both you and Retro mentioned the size of components involved. I've already got 12 mH inductors and 100 uf caps for the sub, that's a 150-ish Hz crossover. The 'mechanically limited' part is more what I was referring to though when I said it made a lot of sense. I was thinking about the sats trying to reproduce the low frequencies, and it appeared from his answer that even though their impedance was not that high down there, they would not be reproducing it anyway.
 
Maybe I should have grabbed another pair of 100 uf caps to high pass the sats. I could try it both ways. But as stated it's temporary till a better setup comes along.
 
Both you and Retro mentioned the size of components involved. I've already got 12 mH inductors and 100 uf caps for the sub, that's a 150-ish Hz crossover.

Yeah, ok sure, but you're using ferrite-cored inductors, aren't you? Saw it in a different thread, I believe. That drops the size of the inductors.

100 µF is 200 Hz at 8 Ω. Moving down to 100 Hz requires 200 µF. (Double the capacitance, halve the frequency.) That is a big, lethargic electrolytic which will make a mess out of the higher frequencies and likely will not have an accurate value, anyway, because electrolytic capacitors have very poor tolerance. A PP film capacitor in that value would physically be quite large and very expensive. A 200 µF electrolytic is $3. A 200 µF PP film is $73.

12 mH is 106 Hz, so that's close enough.

Price out air-core versions of inductors and note the shipping weight. Yeah, that. This is why the price will be four times as much.

I just did a quick check: at 12 mH a 20 gauge cored inductor is $11. An 18 gauge (only size) air core is $42. Pretty close to my estimate.

... that's a 150-ish Hz crossover.

Hmmmm. That's a lot higher than the crossover point for a subwoofer, which is typically below 100 Hz for small speakers and below 80 Hz for larger ones. I would refer you to the Geddes papers on multiple small subwoofers.

Below 100 Hz it becomes much harder to hear artifacts such as comb filtering and group delay.
 
I built a DIY crossover for my DIY subs. A pair of 15-inch JBL 136A. They run off their own amp. The rest of the system is a pair of L300, with its own amp (with similar 136A woofers) and a pair of L166 with its own amp. The L166 amp can be attenuated. All the mess seem to work fine. You cannot tell the subs are in the system, until you turn off its amp. Then, there is a noticeable loss of bass, even at low volumes. I hand-wound my open-air chokes. Used Solen caps.

Good luck with your subs! You'll never be able to listen to music, without them --- once they are dialed-in. :thumbsup: :D

choke (air core, DIY) (small).jpg solen 100mfd caps (small).jpg
 
My rough calculated specs:

Crossover Calculator

Per subwoofer = one 20mH choke and 100mfd/630VDC cap per crossover.

Equal 112Hz, 6dB slope.

Cap = Solen MKP PPE 100mfd/630VDC.

Choke = 1-inch air core, hand-wound, 14-gauge enameled single-stranded, solid copper. ~20mH

BTW... the Solen PPE has worked quite well, in all my speaker crossover fixes. Takes a while to break-in, prolly because of high voltage rating. After a month of playing = very stable audio.
 
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^Those are the caps I was going to recommend. Motor run caps in 100uf are 10-15$ each, and are polypropylene. I use them for all my DIY crossover builds. They are also higher voltage usually.
 
The motor-run capacitors are far from identical to audio capacitors, or even to each other. Since this often comes up I'll toss this in this explanation, and requote as needed.

This is from my notes when I was investigating whether a motor run capacitor using dry polypropylene film was a better solution for crossovers than the conventional polypropylene film sold for audio use. The claims of superiority for the motor-run capacitors over the conventional audio equivalent is, I concluded, yet another form of audio fetishism where giant capacitors of dubious internal construction are deemed to be superior based upon the appearance. The claims are not based in reality, but is oft repeated enough to have the force of audio dogma.

I am setting forth sufficient detail to permit all of this to be independently researched and verified. I'm sure the golden ears will chime in about "to my ears".

The standards for motor-run capacitors are, in part, governed by loose standards permitting a 2% to 5% variation in capacitance with temperature, over and above the capcitor's nominal tolerance. Some capacitors may have greater tolerance.

The motor-run capacitors are also designed for AC use, which, being 50 or 60 Hz, is far, far lower than audio frequencies. The properties are not the same as frequency increases, and some of the datasheets provide quite different values at 1,000 Hz than at the normal motor frequency of 50 or 60 Hz.

(1) Film versus Electrolytic


The first bifurcation between the motor-run capacitor types occurs between film versus electrolytic.

Modern motor-run capacitor are now commonly fabricated as NPE as a cost-savings measure. The lower lifespan of the equipment in which such capacitors are installed, and the associated cost-savings for less-expensive components, therefore benefits from NPE use by way of the lower transfer price in the retail channel, which usually wins over the potentially increased maintenance costs down the road. The cost to replace a failed, failing, or merely old NPE capacitor during routine maintenance is considered to be lower than the cost to purchase film at both time of manufacturing and for ongoing maintenance.

One must therefore be careful to select the proper type of capacitor. I have seen photos of crossovers where the builder crows about the sonic benefits when the capacitors are identifiable as NPE by way of the markings on the side.

The typical film is polypropylene, but this is not guaranteed and all film types are not equivalent, particularly when oil is used as an impregnant. Again, reading of manufacturer specifications is required.

(2) Dry Film versus Wet (Oil) Film

The second bifurcation is dry film versus wet film. Each is further discussed.

(2a) Variations in Dry Film

The film may be polyester, polypropylene (PP), or some other plastic. This matters.

Polyester (polyethylene terephthalate aka PET) — Mylar is the Dupont and Teijin Film Enterprises trademarked name for polyester — has drawbacks:
(a) Profound dielectric absorption which performs signal averaging. The significant difference in dielectric absorption must not be ignored. PET is 0.5% while polypropylene 0.05%, i.e. a factor of ten worse. This accounts for the sonic differences. The reason, in brief, is migration of electrons into the dielectric which are then released over time. Think of this as signal averaging. It is a significant issue in low-noise opamps because the capacitors can integrate over time. Anyone who pushes PTFE (tradename Teflon) for interstage coupling capacitors claiming it has cleaner sound, and a dielectric absoprtion of 0.01% (that's 1/5th of PP and 1/50th of PET) might want to think about using PET instead of PP.

(b) PET is hygroscopic, and any retained moisture causes depolymerization with heat, and that heat arises from ESR which is more significant with constantly changing AC signals. .

(c) Positive temperature coefficient which cause capacitance to rise with temperature. This is not an issue for motor-run applications, but might be for audio. Particularly given that the ESR may give rise to ohmic heating.

(d) PET has high affinity for oil, able to absorb thirty times its weight, which is three times better than cotton which can absorb roughly ten times its weight. This is why PET is used for petroleum oil spills in oceans and waterways. This has ramifications for wet capacitors, as below set forth.

(e) Dissipation Factor is different. For the capacitor I spot-checked, PET is less than 7 x 10-3 while polyproplyene is less than 5 x 10-4., approximately ten times lower.​

The advantage of PET is the 50% larger dielectric constant (ε = 3.3 versus 2.2), which increases capacitance 50% per unit volume.

While the cost is trivial per capacitor, this is a high-volume and very competitive business, so tiny differentials to matter.

(2b) Variations in Wet Film

A wet film capacitor immerses the internals, typically metalized film, uses oil to:
(a) Increase voltage rating, as the oil is non-conductive and displaces air bubbles which would otherwise arc at voltages below the rated limits (both AC and DC)

(b) Reduce corrosion of the metalization layer and contacts, which may be heterogenous as a cost-savings measure, with metals less expensive than aluminum commonly used

(c) Improve heat dissipation for the ohmic heating produced by the ESR.​

The film layer, however, may over time absorb the oil and swell.

While the changing the capacitor geometry may slightly alter the capacitance the more important issue is that the film or its metalization layer may eventually crack from the expansion or the contact points may somewhat detach, reducing conductivity and increasing ESR and thus ohmic heating. This is a known reliability issue with wet-film capacitors, and selection of oil is crucial. Not all manufacturers may properly perform such selection, given the commodity nature of, and low price-point for, such capacitors, or may consider it to be a non-critical issue from the perspective of lifespan which, again, is as short as the equipment into which it is installed.

Swelling is negligible with vegetable oils but petroleum oils, both natural and synthetic or reprocessed, easily swell polypropylene film. The oil must be degassed to prevent the formation of air pockets.

The swelling of the film causes weakening of the end connection between the deposited electrode and the metal sprayed at the end, terminating in open circuits under severe conditions.

Again, the application of motor run is different in that the motor or compressor typically fails before the capacitor, and maintenance swapping for capacitors is considered to be a normal and routine practice.

(3) Differences in Foil vs. Metalization

The third bifurcation is based upon plate construction, i.e. foil vs. metalization, such that (a) physically distinct layers are used for the dielectric (film) and plate (metal), or (b) the metal plate is directly deposited upon the film dielectric using a plasma arc, so one layer serves both purposes.

A foil process consequently has a much thicker plate, whereas metalization (vapor deposition or sputtering) is so thin that the metalization/dielectric layer would be transparent when held up to the light, much like metalized sunglasses. The foil consequently has lower resistance than metalization, which greatly improves charge distribution for AC and pulsed DC applications. But the metalization permits smaller capacitors with less metal and thus lowers the size and cost.

To further reduce manufacturing costs, the motor-run capacitors may further compromise the properties for audio by replacing the metalization layer of pure aluminum with either zinc or a hybrid of aluminum and zinc, or even some other alloy. This matters as zinc has a conductivity of 27 relative to copper and aluminum has 61, again relative to copper, which is 2.6 times greater. (Conductivity is expressed as IACS, International Annealed Copper Standard, with copper being 100 or fully conductive.) Chinese motor-run capacitors commonly use zinc, but many of the US manufacturers are making capacitors (typically in China) using zinc. Yet another race to the bottom.

Zinc increases ESR which is not an issue for the intended application, i.e. motors, but may matter for audio. Interesting how audiophiles who pay high premiums for oxygen-free copper wriing, low-gauge air-core inductors (sometimes even flat inductors), copper-foil coupling capacitors, and silver fuses will happily use capacitors with low-conductivity zinc or alloys, and then crow about the sonic benefits.

(4) Differences in Construction

The fourth bifurcation concerns the internal attachment points, which differ between motor-run and audio capacitors.

Audio capacitors use spot-welding, which physically melts together two metals, similar or dissimilar, to form a low-resistance contact. The motor-run capacitor, however, uses other attachment techniques to reduce costs, typically a non-welded and non-soldered pressure fit, or a pressure with a conductive paste added to improve conductivity. Zinc is often used for this connection point. Higher ESR is the result, and this can be high enough to increase dissipation by ten to a hundred times. In addition, the contact point may corrode, hence the need for oil or a sealed container, which also increases ESR.

TL/DR

Best to stick with audio grade polypropylene capacitors as these are small, inexpensive, and do not have the deleterious properties above described.
 
I’m talking about motor run oil caps. Have you compared them in a crossover to “audio” caps? Either measured or with your ears?
 
We listen to music. You don’t need golden ears to listen to a piece of gear and tell if you like it or not. Regardless, it’s all opinion

There are quite a few different kinds of motor run caps, like you mentioned. Of course there are cheap brands and better brands. No one is saying all motor run caps are good for audio.

Third point is the OP is trying to build a crossover that has a 100-150hz crossover point. So even if motor run caps had a limited freq band (which is not true for the ones I use), it would not apply in this case.

I’m not going to crap on this thread anymore with a long rant. Thanks :)
 
I’m talking about motor run oil caps. Have you compared them in a crossover to “audio” caps? Either measured or with your ears?

Why would I want to use shoddy capacitors of dubious properties and lifespan when for a few bucks more I could purchase long-lived polypropylene film suitable for audio use?

We listen to music. You don’t need golden ears to listen to a piece of gear and tell if you like it or not. Regardless, it’s all opinion

I set forth some major issues, including lower-conductivity zinc or zinc-alloy plates, poor lead connection, swelling of dielectric, etc. All of which may be verified from manufacturer datasheets, publications in peer-reviewed journals, or technical support from the capacitor manufacturers. All of which I have used in creating the above writeup.

You, instead, offer that all of the foregoing is merely opinion. .

There are quite a few different kinds of motor run caps, like you mentioned. Of course there are cheap brands and better brands. No one is saying all motor run caps are good for audio.

Which is why I fully explained the differences. Your statement as to the sonic delights ensuing from motor-run capacitors was unqualified and in need of clarification.

Third point is the OP is trying to build a crossover that has a 100-150hz crossover point. So even if motor run caps had a limited freq band (which is not true for the ones I use), it would not apply in this case.

My comments were an analysis of the suitability of motor-run capacitors for audio use, and I explained issues involving dielectric absorption, degradation, and ESR and DF.

The manufacturer's datasheets clearly specify operation at 50 Hz or 60 Hz, not at the higher frequencies commonly used in crossovers.

The fact that this application is close to the rated frequency does not eliminate the other issues raised, particularly given the power involved in a subwoofer can create internal heating from higher ESR which can degrade the properties or damage the capacitor. I explained how that can happen.
 
My rough calculated specs:

Crossover Calculator

Per subwoofer = one 20mH choke and 100mfd/630VDC cap per crossover.

Equal 112Hz, 6dB slope.

Cap = Solen MKP PPE 100mfd/630VDC.

Choke = 1-inch air core, hand-wound, 14-gauge enameled single-stranded, solid copper. ~20mH

BTW... the Solen PPE has worked quite well, in all my speaker crossover fixes. Takes a while to break-in, prolly because of high voltage rating. After a month of playing = very stable audio.

I am not sure where you deduced 20mh for 100hz crossover at 6db per octave?

12mh is the correct value for 100hz at 8 ohms.

Also air core inductors are more linear compared to iron core inductors.
 
Why would I want to use shoddy capacitors of dubious properties and lifespan when for a few bucks more I could purchase long-lived polypropylene film suitable for audio use?



I set forth some major issues, including lower-conductivity zinc or zinc-alloy plates, poor lead connection, swelling of dielectric, etc. All of which may be verified from manufacturer datasheets, publications in peer-reviewed journals, or technical support from the capacitor manufacturers. All of which I have used in creating the above writeup.

You, instead, offer that all of the foregoing is merely opinion. .



Which is why I fully explained the differences. Your statement as to the sonic delights ensuing from motor-run capacitors was unqualified and in need of clarification.



My comments were an analysis of the suitability of motor-run capacitors for audio use, and I explained issues involving dielectric absorption, degradation, and ESR and DF.

The manufacturer's datasheets clearly specify operation at 50 Hz or 60 Hz, not at the higher frequencies commonly used in crossovers.

The fact that this application is close to the rated frequency does not eliminate the other issues raised, particularly given the power involved in a subwoofer can create internal heating from higher ESR which can degrade the properties or damage the capacitor. I explained how that can happen.

I’m sorry you got beat up in school by motor run cap bullies. Enjoy your audio grade caps and I will enjoy my motor runs. ;)
 
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