Question about replacing relays

[Skywatcher]

People seem to be taking about two different relay requirements and getting confused as a result, one kind for speaker connection use, and another kind for low level signal switching. The low level signal relays DO need to be designed for the purpose with special contacts, because of the very low currents involved.

You might be able to buy 'boutique' speaker relays - but who wants to switch 100A at 50V in a piece of vintage gear? I can only think that these relays must be for live switching of PA system speakers by the sound of it?

In my experience it is very rare to use anything but 'ordinary' relays for speaker protection/switching relays used in vintage gear. So unless you chose an under-rated relay - or buy cheap knock-off or counterfeit relays, you won't have any problems with them.

Well, you know some people think a relay is supposed to work like a high current contactor. Then wonder why the points weld themselves together, or explode and disappear when they re-engage at full volume.
Yes, low voltage signal relays are a whole 'nuther matter. My point is Omron "General Purpose" relays work perfectly for speaker relays. The Omron MY2 have been used for decades and are indeed classified as "GP" relays and use the same plating on the points as the G2R series.

 

[Hyperion]

The Omron MY2 have been used for decades and are indeed classified as "GP" relays and use the same plating on the points as the G2R series.

Exactly

 

[El Rubio]

I’ve never replaced a speaker relay, but whenever I replaced a relay in anything else, I always installed a socket if possible. That way you can replace those GP relays every six months without breaking out the soldering iron.

 

[OMGCat!]

I can't imagine a speaker relay only lasting 6 months unless you have the volume all the way up when it clicks in every single time.
Every relay made by a reputable company will have an AC and DC rating listed in the data sheet. As long as you buy one that falls in line with what the amp is going to be putting out, it will work fine. Despite the crazy ideas people get, a music signal isn't magic, it's just AC.
As for bifurcated relays, I haven't seen them in very many pieces of gear so they can't be all that necessary.

 

[nironiro]

GP relays can be perfectly good for PA, when they works with hundreds of watts, I don't know that.
For HiFi they will soon have poor contact problems with very low level signal.
Last 20-30 years manufacturers (main stream commercial Japanese amps) don't use any boutique relays, they use just ordinary DEC or TE Connectivity relays designed for audio.
Price is about the same as industrial Omron relays.
My guess is that Omron doesn't make speakers relays any more.

 

[nironiro]

I can't imagine a speaker relay only lasting 6 months unless you have the volume all the way up when it clicks in every single time.
Every relay made by a reputable company will have an AC and DC rating listed in the data sheet. As long as you buy one that falls in line with what the amp is going to be putting out, it will work fine. Despite the crazy ideas people get, a music signal isn't magic, it's just AC.
As for bifurcated relays, I haven't seen them in very many pieces of gear so they can't be all that necessary.

As I said many times, Omron G2Z-222P-US used bifurcated contacts, gold plated. It was used massively in the eighties in amplifiers from manufacturers like Sansui, JVC, Kenwood, Pioneer... If you don't know those manufacturers, you'll see them one time probably.
Never mind, I don't care, the OP can use any relay that he wants, it's not my business

 

[Karl vd Berg]

I suggested the Amplimo because it cost reasonably fair € 7.90 (inc VAT), it's easy to get around here, has the right contacts without worry about it. And yes, it's a good relay anyway.
It's not *only* for the Denon amp, but the OP is free to choose anything else.

 

[Hyperion]

I must have lead a really sheltered electronic life, because I have never heard of a relay specifically and only, for speakers.

Also, although the original relays in gear I have replaced speaker relays in, are different model numbers (because the original relays are not made any more), I have never had one come back in 6 months for a relay failure. The same with my own gear, I replaced the speaker relays in one unit at least 6 years ago, and it is my best sounding amplifier of all.

@nironiro you seem upset about this - please say something to convince me that such relays exist - show me where it says on the spec sheet of a relay "for speakers only" - or indeed anything in a relay spec sheet describing its use, where a relay is described as suitable 'for use with speakers'.

The Omron relay MY4-02-DC24 is a favourite relay used for speaker switching - what is the equivalent 'speakers only' relay from Omron or any other manufacturer?

 

[Skywatcher]

As I said many times, Omron G2Z-222P-US used bifurcated contacts, gold plated. It was used massively in the eighties in amplifiers from manufacturers like Sansui, JVC, Kenwood, Pioneer... If you don't know those manufacturers, you'll see them one time probably.
Never mind, I don't care, the OP can use any relay that he wants, it's not my business

They were made (mostly) in Japan, so naturally they would source their relays from a Japanese or other Asian manufacturer whenever possible. Also, you have to watch for counterfeit Omron relays as they are everywhere. I have come across a few and they are junk. They "look" like an Omron, but a close inspection reveals they are not.

 

[avionic]

I must have lead a really sheltered electronic life, because I have never heard of a relay specifically and only, for speakers.

Also, although the original relays in gear I have replaced speaker relays in, are different model numbers (because the original relays are not made any more), I have never had one come back in 6 months for a relay failure. The same with my own gear, I replaced the speaker relays in one unit at least 6 years ago, and it is my best sounding amplifier of all.

@nironiro you seem upset about this - please say something to convince me that such relays exist - show me where it says on the spec sheet of a relay "for speakers only" - or indeed anything in a relay spec sheet describing its use, where a relay is described as suitable 'for use with speakers'.

The Omron relay MY4-02-DC24 is a favourite relay used for speaker switching - what is the equivalent 'speakers only' relay from Omron or any other manufacturer?

Techo babble ... I read it on the internet..It's got to be true..

 

[Hyperion]

Omron G2Z-222P-US

BTW this is just 'a relay' - that happened to get used in a lot of gear back in the day, you can't say 'because of its use' - that's what it was designed for!

 

[nironiro]

I must have lead a really sheltered electronic life, because I have never heard of a relay specifically and only, for speakers.

Also, although the original relays in gear I have replaced speaker relays in, are different model numbers (because the original relays are not made any more), I have never had one come back in 6 months for a relay failure. The same with my own gear, I replaced the speaker relays in one unit at least 6 years ago, and it is my best sounding amplifier of all.

@nironiro you seem upset about this - please say something to convince me that such relays exist - show me where it says on the spec sheet of a relay "for speakers only" - or indeed anything in a relay spec sheet describing its use, where a relay is described as suitable 'for use with speakers'.

The Omron relay MY4-02-DC24 is a favourite relay used for speaker switching - what is the equivalent 'speakers only' relay from Omron or any other manufacturer?

You can use Google and relays datasheets. Don't read forum Gurus.
Or just open 20 newer amplifiers and see what relays they use.
If you know better than manufacturers, than teach them how to do their job.

 

[nironiro]

Techo babble ... I read it on the internet..It's got to be true..

Another internet guru
As I said, OP can use any relay that he want, I really don't care, and don't need this.
Sorry if I upset gurus here, don't pay attention to my posts.

 

[Hyperion]

Or just open 20 newer amplifiers and see what relays they use.

Well, they won't be using G2Z-222P-US as they've been obsolete for years.

 

[Hyperion]

Also, I'm definitely not certain that the relays are at fault, but it seems wise to replace them given that they are prone to fail. Good idea?

You could remove the relays and activate them with a 24V PSU, and measure the contact resistance while energised.

Regarding the 'NC' contacts, and cutting the pins off, they are often not used if the relays are for speaker protection duty, so maybe you can use the new relays after all? - you would need to check this on the schematic - of if someone familiar with the Denon PMA560 knows this?

 

[Skywatcher]

You could remove the relays and activate them with a 24V PSU, and measure the contact resistance while energised.

Regarding the 'NC' contacts, and cutting the pins off, they are often not used if the relays are for speaker protection duty, so maybe you can use the new relays after all? - you would need to check this on the schematic - of if someone familiar with the Denon PMA560 knows this?

Looking at the photo, the inner (NC) pins aren't used and will have to be snipped off in order to mount it. I myself wouldn't hesitate to use it. I use them all the time.

 

[gslikker]

This topic by @leesonic suggest the mentioned "speaker" relay oxidizes, too . https://audiokarma.org/forums/index...p-us-relay-drop-in-replacement-almost.505276/

 

[Stepwise]

Some of you has mentioned "relay contact material" and that is a step in the right direction.
Those who ingore it completely can also have their opinions here safely ignored.
The properties of different contact materials and their uses are well known.

Old "General Purpose" types are illegal in some countries and for some uses and now
"GP" relays have become "gp" relays, less capable because the old favourite cadmium is
not allowed as an alloy material.

Guess why some types are Unobtanium today?

You might also want to check the differencies between solid and (gold)-plated contacts.

... so the wannabe Gurus in special (and all others if they still have interest that survived) can
update their "contact lists" like now!

 

[Skywatcher]

This topic by @leesonic suggest the mentioned "speaker" relay oxidizes, too . https://audiokarma.org/forums/index...p-us-relay-drop-in-replacement-almost.505276/

ANY relay will become "corroded" (what lee actually said) if used hard (abused) and over time. Every time the points close and open under load a spark is produced. Each spark creates a tiny pit. Over time the pits accumulate and eventually pit through the plated surface. THAT is why you should *ALWAYS* turn the volume down before hitting the power switch both ON and OFF. Speaker relays, no matter what "flavor", are NOT high current/high voltage contactors. They are only meant as a "safety" device in the event of an anomaly that puts excessive DC voltage into the speakers. Under NORMAL circumstances, the points will not "oxidize" (your word, not Lee's) and last for many, many years. I have an original MY4 relay here out of a 1976 Sansui 9090DB that the customer insisted I replace because people told him they "just go bad". It looks brand spanking new with absolutely no damage to the shiny, clean, non-oxidized points. Why? Because this guy religiously turned the volume to zero every time he hit the power switch, and never ran the thing hot enough to fry eggs on and kick it out under full load. In other words, he never ABUSED it. Abuse kills relays, nothing else. The condition of the speaker relay tells you whether or not someone is abusing (welded or burned points) or they take care of their unit and use it properly (clean, shiny points). It's something they can't hide from a trained eye. Although some times the "bean counters" do strike and put 3A relays where a 5A should have been used to "save money" to put out a unit at a price point. (competition, remember?) The Denon the OP mentioned is one perfect example of that. It should have had a 5A relay to begin with instead of a 3A.

 

[Skywatcher]

Some of you has mentioned "relay contact material" and that is a step in the right direction.
Those who ingore it completely can also have their opinions here safely ignored.
The properties of different contact materials and their uses are well known.

Old "General Purpose" types are illegal in some countries and for some uses and now
"GP" relays have become "gp" relays, less capable because the old favourite cadmium is
not allowed as an alloy material.

Guess why some types are Unobtanium today?

You might also want to check the differencies between solid and (gold)-plated contacts.

... so the wannabe Gurus in special (and all others if they still have interest that survived) can
update their "contact lists" like now!

Gold plated points are great for small signal relays for sure. But won't survive the abuse people put on higher voltage/current speaker relays. Gold is soft and won't take the punishment. Politicians "outlaw" many things they don't understand and as a result, we lose out and have to "settle" for the next best thing(s) available that we're still "allowed" to have. Relays being one of those things. Most of the "outlawing" is done because of the employees' exposure and not for "the environment" of the consumer since they never touch what is inside. Yes, there's more to it but this isn't the forum to go further. I'm just glad I can still use good ol' 60/40 Kester solder. Lead never hurt me, see.. I've always been goofy.