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Question on high-end interconnects

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Mr. Lin said:
I've never seen anyone say any of those things, so I think you're exaggerating, or simply misunderstanding what people are saying. And the "protection" you're referring to flows the "other way" in every other forum but TOL.
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It all depends on perspective.

Reminds me of when a buddy of mine told me I should stop listening to the radio programs I do, and instead listen to NPR because NPR is, in his words, unbiased. I'm sure it does seem that way to him since they seem to be on the same page in many regards.
 
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Mr. Lin said:
You are the one who brought up cost.
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I only brought up cost as pertaining to my question. It would have been silly for me to ask: "What do ICs do"?
I asked the question to see if there was a way to cut through the hype of the uber expensive IC industry and get the straight scoop.
Some folks just get all worked up about this subject because of what they may have spent thinking that they are being attacked for it. Sure, there are those out there that do attack without anything to back them up. I was not one of them. I could care less what anyone spent on cables or whatever. It's their money, and if it solved a problem or just made them happy (science or no science) or whatever, then great. Why should it matter to anyone else? Of course I care about what things cost me personally of course, but that's a given.

I only wanted measurable results and if so I wanted to know if I would notice anything obvious on my own system which is why I mentioned it. I was not using it as a universal example, that would be illogical.
 
whoaru99 said:
Hmmm....coming out of the woodwork? Where? I think in the years I've been on AK I've only seen them mentioned a handful of times...and most of those probably was me mentioning my pair. :D
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Sorry, I meant on other forums not associated with AK.
 
whoaru99 said:
It all depends on perspective.

Reminds me of when a buddy of mine told me I should stop listening to the radio programs I do, and instead listen to NPR because NPR is, in his words, unbiased. I'm sure it does seem that way to him since they seem to be on the same page in many regards.
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Precisely. Like I just mentioned to Mr Lin. Attacks, perceived or otherwise happen from both side of any fence and don't accomplish anything except to reign chaos and destruction.
I know of no radio program that is unbiased. In fact, the same goes for TV programs as well. I don't listen to any of them. If I want news, I do my own research (and I do). Yes, it's extra work, but I like things unfiltered as much as possible.
 
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IMHO I have the belief it all comes down to personal preference. If it sounds good to me, that's what counts.

Someone else might not like what I like, but if I do find someone who has similar tastes, I hope we can learn from each other.

I will continue to seek others opinions when I'm making choices, but the final decision rests in my unique preference (and budget).

It doesn't matter to me what brand it is or materials were used in construction (within reason) as long as it sounds good to me (and will last at least until I find something better).

I shouldn't knock someone for only being able to spend few dollars on gear, nor should I knock someone who buys the most expensive there is.

I prefer red-heads, one friend prefers brunettes, and another prefers blonds. We still all get along and are just fine with the others choices.

Respect!!
:music:
 
Mr. Lin said:
I don't think the "blind" part would work too well there. ;)

Haven't seen you around here much lately Gary.
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Yea, life is getting in the way. Even let my AK Subscriber lapse.... :no: ...must do something about that. But I'm still around!

Must disagree.... the "blind" part would work well - you might go blind after... ummmm, 'nuf said. :D
 
Rather than start a new thread about this topic, I thought it better to continue this ongoing discussion (about the cables, that is). I just read an article that appeared in Hi-Fi+ Magazine (a British mag that has merged with Absolute Sound) awhile ago about a double blind test (DBT) with six different brands of IC/SC groupings at different price levels. The link to the article (which can also be found on Nordost's website) is here: http://www.nordost.com/pdf/hifiplus_issue34.pdf

I'll cut to the chase for those who rather not read the entire article, though I think it is definitely worth the read for those interested in the subject. This is how the cables ranked overall:

1) Nordost Valhalla (most expensive IC; 3rd most SC)
2) Chord Signature (4th; 5th)
3) Stereovox Symmetry (2nd; 1st)
4) Siltech SQ-110/LS-188 (3rd; 2nd)*
5) Audience Au24 (5th; 4th)
6) QED Q-nect 3/Silver Anniversary (6th; 6th)
*After adjustment. See article for more details.

The article breaks down the methodology/systems used/results with more detail than I care to copy here. Suffice it to say for now that at least one mainstream audio review publication (not including Audioholics in this assessment, though I think that website has a useful role to play in the audio/video review industry) has conducted a DBT test and has published those results. I am of the belief that whatever method you employ to choose a component for your system is fine, as long as you are satisfied with your choice, cables being no different than any other component in that regard (yes, I think of cables as components). I found the article useful to read, even if it is not a method I would employ to make a decision. Have at it...
 
Thanks for the informatin asindc. I just bought the current Hi-Fi+ but haven't looked through it- I like that magazine a lot, and yes, I've seen a lot of blind test comparisons in that publication. I may have to get a subscription now that Borders is out of business, which is where I always read it/bought it.

Every few days for a few weeks now a friend of mine has been calling me, telling me about his cable rolling adventures. I hope I end up with some of the losers.
 
JohnVF said:
Every few days for a few weeks now a friend of mine has been calling me, telling me about his cable rolling adventures. I hope I end up with some of the losers.
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Haha, you're funny John! Perhaps we should flip flop on the DBT issue and begin benefitting...

..."yes, yes...you're right, the Nordost is indeed no better than the Radio Shack. Please allow me to remove it from your sight..."
 
Interesting Article

asindc said:
I just read an article that appeared in Hi-Fi+ Magazine (a British mag that has merged with Absolute Sound) awhile ago about a double blind test (DBT) with six different brands of IC/SC groupings at different price levels.
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Thanks for posting that interesting article. The question is, what to make of it? Did it, as the author claimed, hoist those who demand scientific tests on their own petard? Was the test so deeply flawed that it proved nothing? I encourage you to read the article and come to your own conclusions.

How did this test relate to me or to others here? I highly doubt I'll ever shell out $10,000 for one stereo IC and two 15 foot speaker cables. I'll never own a system where that expense for cables is in line with the rest of the system. If I had a system that might be considered low to mid audiophile, say total system outlay in the $5k to $10k range, I think I'd be far more likely to hear an improvement by taking that $10k and applying it to a speaker and/or amp upgrade.

Can I take those results and interpolate them to less expensive cables, something in the range of the "cheap" QED's they threw into the test? Could I assume, say that the QED's would stand head and shoulders above Monoprice cables or that I could hear differences in the QED's and other cables similarly priced? Personally, I wouldn't use that test to make any assumptions.

I did find a couple of things interesting. One judge scored the "cheap" QED cables first in one test and last in the other. There are two possible explanations. The first is the cables had "synergy" with one system and not the other. The second is that it shows randomness in the response of the judges and that two tests aren't enough. It also shows that there might have been some environmental factors, such as the lunch and the pint or two of bitter they consumed between tests. For me a far more conclusive but impractical test would be to have the same three repeat the test on the same equipment using the same songs over an extended period. If they scored the cables in the same order 45 out of 50 trials, then we could say with some assurance that there is an audible difference between them.
 
The article spent precious little space on methodology. It would be a bit more compelling if it had followed any of the many scientific protocols.

With all that time and effort expended, there was no attempt to establish whether listeners could reliably tell whether cables had been changed at all. Lots of time complaining about how arduous the testing was.

Welcome to science. A publishable experiment like that might take weeks to perform.
 
There's just no pleasing you guys, is there? :) Its a magazine for entertainment and picking out gear- its not some peer reviewed study. Aren't you at least glad they made some effort? This magazine does several blind tests, actually- I don't think they expect any of them to be taken as the last word, but its nice that they at least make an effort.
 
cubdog said:
I've been wondering about cable burn in. Can someone explain this to me?
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Cables make the music sound different between the time you first plug them in and start to listen and after about 50 hours of playing.

I have done this. For new wires, I listen first for as long as I can (usually 1 hour or less) and then the harshness dictates that I can't stand it any more.

For interconnects, I just leave the CD player on repeat (no need to turn on the whole stereo). For speaker cables, I use an old receiver connected to an old pair of speakers and just leave to radio on for a few days.

Then I listen again. Is it better, worse or no change? Can I enjoy my music?

Easy to do.
 
GaryP said:
Cables make the music sound different between the time you first plug them in and start to listen and after about 50 hours of playing.

I have done this. For new wires, I listen first for as long as I can (usually 1 hour or less) and then the harshness dictates that I can't stand it any more.

For interconnects, I just leave the CD player on repeat (no need to turn on the whole stereo). For speaker cables, I use an old receiver connected to an old pair of speakers and just leave to radio on for a few days.

Then I listen again. Is it better, worse or no change? Can I enjoy my music?

Easy to do.
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Also there are devices designed to speed up and more thoroughly complete the process. I put together a Hagtech Frybaby from a half-kit a couple years ago that's just such a device. With some cables I sure heard a difference, not so much with others. However, one of the other reasons I bought the kit has ended up being more useful: you can hook it up to any type of amp/preamp for burn in, warm up, etc.. I've found this works especially well with tube equipment.

In anticipation of the question "How is it possible to burn in cables?", I don't know. There are theories about it, I couldn't tell you if any of them are the right one, but from what I've heard, I'm confident it's a real phenomenon.
 
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