Raysonic 7591 based amplifiers-My Hat's Off

[getter365]

Just sharing some information here. I wondered why many tube amp manufacturers don't use the 7591 now that it is available. Well today I found a company called Raysonic that uses the EH 7591 tube in their amplifiers. I don't know this company from Adam but I was glad they offer a few amplifiers with this tube instead of the usual fare.

Below is a link to their basic integrated with 7591. They have higher powered ones too that use 4, 7591 per channel.

http://www.raysonicaudio.com/product_details.php?ID=15


Anyone have one of these or have heard one of these?

 

[mikey5967]

I owned an EICO St-40 and EICO St-70 in my day, both of which used 4 7591s as the finals, and to be honest, I was never impressed with the sound of the 7591 tube. Kind of flabby and mushy, for my taste. Not much of a soundstage, either.

When I got my first EICO HF-81, and I heard what a difference using the EL84s made in the sound, I was converted. The Beatles, in particular, sounded GREAT on El84 tubes. Thats really what converted me.

I've always thought that the reason why you didnt see many manufacturers use the 7591 was because they also knew the limitations of the sound. I know that for awhile, the 7591 wasnt manufactured by anyone, but there were always used tubes around. Westinghouse made a ton of them in the 1960s.

Personally, I'd pass on any amp that used 7591s. I just feel that EL84, and for higher power, the EL34 sound much better....just my .02 cents.

 

[Wes_in_VA]

I did a shootout last night with my Yaqin MC10L which used EL34's vs a Sherwood S5500 with 7591's. That thread is HERE, but my point being that I really loved that 7591 sound. It's certainly different, but it's really nice.
It's not apples to apples in my case since the Yaqin is a cheap Chinese amp, some 50 years newer, and barely broken in, but still...
I also have a pair of Eico HF20's with 6L6's. Those are still my preference, btw.

 

[mikey5967]

Hiya Wes. Why sure, individual preference will always be the determining factor in what tube sounds "best" to you.

I'm sure all the guitarists who grew up in the 60s and 70s like the 6L6 sound, since a bunch of guitar amps used that tube. Theres no right or wrong.

For me, the EL84 sound is just "right". I'm a big Beatles fan, searching out the original Parlophone LPs for the best sound. Its no coincidence that The Beatles (and many other Britsih invasion bands) used VOX amps, that used the EL84s in the final section, and that the REDD consoles at EMI used the 12AU7. Both of those tube families are found in the Eico Hf-81, so its no wonder there is good synergy with The Beatles and my HF-81 there!! It also doesnt hurt that I use Tannoy Speakers, which all the Beatles material was mixed on at Abbey Road.

 

[tonyg88]

I have a fisher 800c that uses 7591a and a stromberg that uses 7189a

fisher 800c has more balls sounding to me but the stromberg has an over all sweeter sound I think. I payed 5x more for the fisher so I use that more haha

 

[derekva]

I owned an EICO St-40 and EICO St-70 in my day, both of which used 4 7591s as the finals, and to be honest, I was never impressed with the sound of the 7591 tube. Kind of flabby and mushy, for my taste. Not much of a soundstage, either.

When I got my first EICO HF-81, and I heard what a difference using the EL84s made in the sound, I was converted. The Beatles, in particular, sounded GREAT on El84 tubes. Thats really what converted me.

I've always thought that the reason why you didnt see many manufacturers use the 7591 was because they also knew the limitations of the sound. I know that for awhile, the 7591 wasnt manufactured by anyone, but there were always used tubes around. Westinghouse made a ton of them in the 1960s.

Personally, I'd pass on any amp that used 7591s. I just feel that EL84, and for higher power, the EL34 sound much better....just my .02 cents.

It's all a matter of opinion - I love EL84 amps (my home theater uses a trio of Fisher 30A clones for the L/C/R speakers and I have a mono EL84 console upstairs in the bedroom), but upstairs, I need a little more power. 15-17WPC doesn't give me quite the authority I need. However, a 30WPC 7591 amplifier gives a sound that is very close to that of an EL84 (not a perfect match, but close), with the additional headroom my speakers need.

But, again, it's a matter of opinion (and iron, and circuit topography).

-D

 

[mikey5967]

7591

Derek,

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you. The sound of the 7591 tube is nothing like the sound of the EL84. The EL84 has a VERY distinctive and smooth, liquid midrange which gives it it's "Sweet" character.

The 7591, on the other hand, has good top and bottom response, strong bass, but does not have anything near the sweet midrange of the EL84. I also find the EL84 to be more "3D' than the 7581, and to have a wider soundstage. Just my opinion, of course.

This is why, those who love vocalists more than, say, a rock band, usually go for amps based on the EL84.

Naturally, there are differences depending on what tube brands you actually use. A Sylvania EL84 will sound different than an RCa or a Mullard, etc. But in general, the EL84 sound has its own sonic signature, which in my view is much different than the 7591.

 

[audiodon]

Hey you guys keep pig piling on the 7591s and drive the prices down . . .just for me, Ok?

I don't find any midrange limitations in 7591 or 7868 tube implementations.
But hey, vote with your own dollars.
More 7591s for me . . .heh heh heh

To me, there are design ways around limitations with generally accepted power tubes, and those generally accepted ways have been found.

 

[Dandy]

I agree with this dilemma about the sound of 7591s. My Kegger-designed 7591 amp sounds pretty amazing, but I like my ST40 with 6L6s better than when it ran 7591s, There is something irresistible about EL84s but like the others they sound different with different iron. And then there's the 6BM8.... Maybe we just have too much choice?

 

[tonyg88]

Derek,

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you. The sound of the 7591 tube is nothing like the sound of the EL84. The EL84 has a VERY distinctive and smooth, liquid midrange which gives it it's "Sweet" character.

The 7591, on the other hand, has good top and bottom response, strong bass, but does not have anything near the sweet midrange of the EL84. I also find the EL84 to be more "3D' than the 7581, and to have a wider soundstage. Just my opinion, of course.

This is why, those who love vocalists more than, say, a rock band, usually go for amps based on the EL84.

Naturally, there are differences depending on what tube brands you actually use. A Sylvania EL84 will sound different than an RCa or a Mullard, etc. But in general, the EL84 sound has its own sonic signature, which in my view is much different than the 7591.

I agree with 100% something in the midrange sounds amazing like 3d like but if you have less bottom end and high end then all that is left is the mid range? Maybe thats why we think they sound so good....

 

[audiodon]

Yeh, if your peripherals are good, your speakers are good and you get a good image, the extension at both ends of 7591s or 7868 can easily mask midrange quality.
Have any of you ever heard a Fisher 500-B or 800-B?

That said, I do know what you all mean by the holographic EL-84 soundstage. But to me it's kinda hi-fi and doesn't sound like real voices and real music in real time and real spaces, so I don't settle for it.
That's also why I don't gravitate towards some holographic sounding preamp tubes like the Sylvania triple-mica 5751 as a substitute for a 12AX7 in a preamp circuit.

Opinions . . .everybody has one. All are valid.

 

[Wes_in_VA]

I'm a total sucker for the holographic thing, but the extension that those 7591's provide is really nice.

Yeh, if your peripherals are good, your speakers are good and you get a good image, the extension at both ends of 7591s or 78682 can easily mask midrange quality.

That's an interesting point. I'll have to pay that some attention tonight. It does seem that the soundstage with the 7591's is *wider* than with the EL34's. Maybe that is just making the depth seem a bit less? Interesting.

 

[audiodon]

Wes_in_VA,
Dialing back from super natural to natural requires the ability to live without what's possible in pursuit of what's natural and real.
I often have found the super (beyond what you'd find in nature) natural to be tempting. But it is a temptation that does not lead to satisfaction because you start looking at every live performance you attend with contempt because it sounds "better" at home.

 

[tonyg88]

maybe all the power of the 7591a goes to the bass making the mid seem lacking while its the other way around for 7189

 

[Wes_in_VA]

Wes_in_VA,
Dialing back from super natural to natural requires the ability to live without what's possible in pursuit of what's natural and real.
I often have found the super (beyond what you'd find in nature) natural to be tempting. But it is a temptation that does not lead to satisfaction because you start looking at every live performance you attend with contempt because it sounds "better" at home.

That's a very good point and I find myself desiring to hop between those two worlds.
I'm most concerned with feeling enaged with the music. I want to get lost in it. Sometimes the "supernatural" effect is just what the doctor ordered. For vocal oriented stuff like Lyle Lovett, Boz Scaggs, Norah Jones and the like, that sound makes me happy. But it's lacking with lots of other stuff that I love to listen to.

 

[mikey5967]

See, for ME, getting that holographic image with the EL84s is what its all about.......the singer seems to be floating in the air in front of me, and I LOVE that.

I also use the Sylvania 5751s in the EICO, and that really boosts the 3D image. On somethings, its eerie......the singer is in the room with you.

But as I always say, to each his own. Some people like a "flatter", less 3D sound, but with heavy bass (like the old Advent Speakers had) . There is no right or wrong, its all in what you prefer. I'm just an EL84 guy, mainly because The Beatles sound so good thru them.

 

[audiodon]

See? This is why there's more than one vendor of equipment and not all of it sounds the same. We all seek what works for us.

 

[gadget73]

Keep in mind here, most of y'all are talking about integrated amps or receivers that have a lot of other circuitry in addition to the output tubes. All that stuff has no small effect on the sound you get. To really get any inkling of how just the tube sounds, you'd need to build a straight up power amp around them and drive the 7591 amp and whatever else with the same preamp to get a good comparison.

All that said, I like both my Sherwood S-7000 with its 7868 conversion (electrically the same thing as a 7591) and my stock and modified Magnavox amps that use EL84 tubes. They are different, but they are both good. The Sherwood is a receiver, and the Magnavoxes I drive with two different preamps, and they have different output transformers so they don't really even sound the same.

 

[getter365]

Hi all, I am the original poster and thanks for your inputs. I really like to hear what other tube fans like to say. I did not know this was going to somehow get twisted into a EL84 (7189) vs 7591 thread but so be it. It is still a related discussion to the original post so let it flourish.

I grew up with the 7591 based tube integrated amplifiers from H.H. Scott. So this was the only tube I was exposed to decades ago. Then later on I have acquired some amps and kits that used the smaller 7189/EL84/6BQ5 family.

I have read that H.H. Scott, back in the day, brought in musicians to listen to their amplifiers to choose the circuits and tubes that gave the most honest reproduction to the live instruments. I am assuming they did this R & D with both the 7189 based amps and the higher rated 7591 amps. So they must have had good sonic reasons to choose the 7591 tube instead of others that were available, as well as other non-sonic reasons. Not only Scott, but Fisher, Sherwood, Pilot, Heathkit, and others chose the same tube.

I really like the sound of the 7189 tube as used in my Scott 299B. When I purchased this amp, the sound really blew me away, and the midrange is amazing. Now I use Sovtek EL84M types in it. So true, the midrange is amazing. But like gadget states, it would not give black and white results if I compared my 299C (7591) to my 299B (7189/EL84M) because maybe the magic is in the transformers and preamp and not really the tubes. But my 7591 amps still have beautiful 3D sound and midrange as well - not just great bass and treble. Hey just turn down your 7591 amp's bass and treble if you want to hear the beautiful midrange.

All I can say is Mariah Carey (her older material) sounds really amazing on my 7591 amps, I have yet to listen to her on my 7189 amps.....ahhh life is good....so much to look forward to. Keep the comments coming folks.

 

[Patrice B]

Yes, it is cool to see modern manufacturer going with 7591's.

Their amps looks beautiful I think (and probably sounds not bad at all). Surely pricey items however...

As for the 7591 vs 7189 (it is clearly not what the OP wanted): I have two 7591's based-amps, a Scott LK-72 and an Heathkit AA-100 (yes, the dreaded old Heathkit dog but completetly redone following GordonW recipe). They sing beautifully, not only in the bass department but everywhere else.

I have a few of 6BQ5-7189 based amps, mainly the Fisher X-100-2, an Eico HF-81, a Scott 222D and a Stromberg-Carlson ASR-333 and they definitely sounds good too.

Wasn't the 7591 thing only to have a little bit more of power (packed in a relatively small bottle) in these old days? All the major North American brands had a 7591 offering (H/K, Fisher, Scott, Heathkit, Eico, McIntosh).


Anyway, back to the topic: I'm curious to know more about Raysonic (are the amps build outsourced to Asia, point-to-point or PCB's, pricing).

Patrice