Raysonic 7591 based amplifiers-My Hat's Off

[kpaxfaq]

Since I've acquired a small variety of different speakers, pre-amps, and amps I've realized I don't like a certain tube or amp better then another.

Certain amps/tube types sound better on certain speakers then others. Right now I'm listening to my Klipsch Forte II's and my Bogen MO-200A running PPP KT-77's for 65W/channel sounds better to my ears then my Fisher SA-100. Lots of headroom, full range of frequencies, and a very wide full sound-stage. The Fisher seems to excel in the mid-range but lacks the full and wide sound-stage...on these speakers.

One the other hand when listening to my Altec Bolero 890C's I feel the Fisher SA-100 with 7189's is distinctly better then the Bogen which frankly sounds sterile and cold on those in comparison.

It's a shame but I haven't tried my Fisher 800B on my Klipsch speakers yet because I'm so into vinyl now and the phono stage flat out sucks compared to the Yamaha C-4...I feel like it's kind of a waste to run another preamp into it when I have plenty of quality power amps for the task.

I do feel like the Fisher 800B sounds the best with my Dynaco A-25XL's though...

I always read about synergy among components but could never really substantiate the differences until 3 years into this journey of serious listening once I had the chance to really "test" everything you read about.

In all this blathering I guess the point is you shouldn't write off the 7591 completely

 

[Patrice B]

Since I've acquired a small variety of different speakers, pre-amps, and amps I've realized I don't like a certain tube or amp better then another.

It resumes exactly my thinking.

And just to throw in something bizarre: I found my Scott LK-72 was sounding fabulous with smalls Minimus 7! On paper, not really a good match, isn't it?

Thanks.

Patrice

 

[derekva]

See, for ME, getting that holographic image with the EL84s is what its all about.......the singer seems to be floating in the air in front of me, and I LOVE that.

I also use the Sylvania 5751s in the EICO, and that really boosts the 3D image. On somethings, its eerie......the singer is in the room with you.

But as I always say, to each his own. Some people like a "flatter", less 3D sound, but with heavy bass (like the old Advent Speakers had) . There is no right or wrong, its all in what you prefer. I'm just an EL84 guy, mainly because The Beatles sound so good thru them.

'Holographic' sound is not about tone but about imaging. From a purely tonal standpoint, the 7591 (especially NOS tubes like Westinghouse), is very similar to the EL84, but again, this depends upon (a) the circuit in use and (b) the iron in use. Not to mention that not all EL84 tubes OR 7591 tubes sound the same; if they did, you wouldn't be paying a king's ransom for Mullard 7189s or Ampex Bugle Boy EL84s (or Westinghouse 7591s, for that matter). Likewise, I wouldn't characterize the 7591 as bass heavy, but rather the EL84 is a bit bass shy (mostly due to power limits). On the other hand, an EL84 PPP amplifier will have bass galore.

But again, to each their own. I swing both ways.

-D

 

[derekva]

It resumes exactly my thinking.

And just to throw in something bizarre: I found my Scott LK-72 was sounding fabulous with smalls Minimus 7! On paper, not really a good match, isn't it?

Thanks.

Patrice

Heck - I have a KX-90 (which is about 1/2 the power of the LK-72) which plays very nicely with a pair of Minimus 7s!

-D

 

[shelby1420]

I owned an EICO St-40 and EICO St-70 in my day, both of which used 4 7591s as the finals, and to be honest, I was never impressed with the sound of the 7591 tube. Kind of flabby and mushy, for my taste. Not much of a soundstage, either.

When I got my first EICO HF-81, and I heard what a difference using the EL84s made in the sound, I was converted. The Beatles, in particular, sounded GREAT on El84 tubes. Thats really what converted me.

I've always thought that the reason why you didnt see many manufacturers use the 7591 was because they also knew the limitations of the sound. I know that for awhile, the 7591 wasnt manufactured by anyone, but there were always used tubes around. Westinghouse made a ton of them in the 1960s.

Personally, I'd pass on any amp that used 7591s. I just feel that EL84, and for higher power, the EL34 sound much better....just my .02 cents.

Interesting take on the EL84's, to this day I have not heard an EL84 amp that did not make me want to turn off the music!! 7591's were better but still not enough to hang around in my main rig.......... what’s lasted is my 6v6 amp, now there is some magic........... terrific bass, mids that are simply untouchable by anything I've heard to date and highs ever so slightly rolled at the very extreme frequencies, pure heaven!!!!:thmbsp:

 

[Phototone]

That Raysonic ad (link in first post) states that the 7591 tube was designed by Western Electric. Well, er NO IT WASN'T. It was designed by Westinghouse. Also, to be very accurate, this amp is not an "integrated" amp. It is a power-amp, even though it has level controls. Many power-amps have level controls. We keep going down this road of mis-labeling power-amps BECAUSE modern CD players or iPods generate enough voltage to drive them direct. Doesn't matter, this amp does not have a Pre-amp built in, which is the definition of an "integrated amp".

 

[derekva]

That Raysonic ad (link in first post) states that the 7591 tube was designed by Western Electric. Well, er NO IT WASN'T. It was designed by Westinghouse. Also, to be very accurate, this amp is not an "integrated" amp. It is a power-amp, even though it has level controls. Many power-amps have level controls. We keep going down this road of mis-labeling power-amps BECAUSE modern CD players or iPods generate enough voltage to drive them direct. Doesn't matter, this amp does not have a Pre-amp built in, which is the definition of an "integrated amp".

Someone needs a beer (purely medicinal). :thmbsp:

-D

 

[gadget73]

Is anyone designing amps around the 7868? Functionally its the same tube, just a different socket really. EH makes one of those too, though I do not believe anyone else does.

 

[getter365]

Hi Gadget73,

I have not seen anyone using the 7868 in a modern tube amp, or a 6GM5. But what I do know is the 7591 is more popular and is a lower cost tube than the rarer 7868. And right now there are two sources for the 7591 and only EH makes the 7868 I believe. So if I was designing an amplifier for consumers and price point was a concern, I'd go with the 7591 due to its lower cost and two suppliers. If you need 4 of them, that material cost adds up.

 

[mikey5967]

7591 vs. EL84

Interesting take on the EL84's, to this day I have not heard an EL84 amp that did not make me want to turn off the music!! 7591's were better but still not enough to hang around in my main rig.......... what’s lasted is my 6v6 amp, now there is some magic........... terrific bass, mids that are simply untouchable by anything I've heard to date and highs ever so slightly rolled at the very extreme frequencies, pure heaven!!!!:thmbsp:

>>>>>Thats interesting Shel. I have to be honest, I dont think I've ever heard the 6V6. I know a bunch of console amps used the 6V6.
I wouldnt mind buying a cheap 6v6 amp just too hook it up to hear what it sounds like.

 

[shelby1420]

>>>>>Thats interesting Shel. I have to be honest, I dont think I've ever heard the 6V6. I know a bunch of console amps used the 6V6.
I wouldnt mind buying a cheap 6v6 amp just too hook it up to hear what it sounds like.

I should really have noted that this was in my system, I have heard the EL84 ( think it was at one of the Fests) with some home brew speakers and it sounded quite lovely indeed!!! However in my house and with my gear, they just did not work............... funny thing, I had never heard the 6v6 in anything till my buddy told me the two guitar amps of his that I always thought were his best were both 6v6..................he actually has one of the EL84 based amps I overhauled ( Scott 299C) to this day says he is bringin it to his grave with him.....................:thmbsp:

 

[Wes_in_VA]

I've been going between my Yaqin with EL34's and my Sherwood with the 7591's and MAN, am I torn between them!
The difference is huge. I guess I'm just gonna have to leave them both in the rack so I can go back and forth.

 

[Dandy]

+1 Wes. A good solution, but I see it's the Eico HF20s with 6L6s for serious listening.

 

[Wes_in_VA]

+1 Wes. A good solution, but I see it's the Eico HF20s with 6L6s for serious listening.

Yep, that's very true. That setup is just amazing. I love, love, love those Eicos.
I'm getting ready to have Stu over at EicoBuilders do some mods and some updating on the caps and wiring. I'm removing the preamp section altogether, getting rid of the tone controls, and updating the speaker, rca and power cord connections.
I know some might say that's a travesty, but I think it's just what the doctor ordered! :thmbsp:

 

[wgrr]

I owned an EICO St-40 and EICO St-70 in my day, both of which used 4 7591s as the finals, and to be honest, I was never impressed with the sound of the 7591 tube. Kind of flabby and mushy, for my taste. Not much of a soundstage, either.

When I got my first EICO HF-81, and I heard what a difference using the EL84s made in the sound, I was converted. The Beatles, in particular, sounded GREAT on El84 tubes. Thats really what converted me.

I've always thought that the reason why you didnt see many manufacturers use the 7591 was because they also knew the limitations of the sound. I know that for awhile, the 7591 wasnt manufactured by anyone, but there were always used tubes around. Westinghouse made a ton of them in the 1960s.

Personally, I'd pass on any amp that used 7591s. I just feel that EL84, and for higher power, the EL34 sound much better....just my .02 cents.

I never experienced inferior sound from my Scott 299D (early) running the original red base Scott 7591's. I had trouble with the JJ small bottle 7591's but that was several years ago. The sound was not bad but they were very unreliable. I have heard their reliability and life span have increased. I may try a quad again. The EH coin based 7591 is an excellent tube, but is taller, and will not fit in some cases, if you choose to use one. I run my 299D naked so it does not matter. I have never owned an EICO so I can make no comparisons.

 

[Dandy]

... I have never owned an EICO so I can make no comparisons.

It looks as though otherwise you've got tubes well covered. :thmbsp:

 

[Wes_in_VA]

I've commented earlier in this thread about my positive impressions of my Sherwood S5500 using the 7591's. (I also have Eicos using the 6L6's and a Yaqin using EL84.)
I really dug this Sherwood. However, I had gone back to my Audible Illusions tube preamp/Legacy 432 amp combo. It had more detail and more oomph.

I recently got tube tester from byoungman and finally got around to pulling some tubes today. That included the 12AX7's in the Sherwood and lo and behold, it turned out that there was a bad one. My local tech had checked things out recently and told
me all was good, but apparently he missed this one.
I had a spare Mullard laying around. Threw that puppy in, plugged things up to the Sherwood and it's all there. All that detail and oomph.
My wife and I are sitting here listening to Little Feat's Waiting for Columbus. This is the longest she's listened with me for a long time. When the wife is impressed, you know there's something good going on.

Those 6L6's and EL84's are both great, but the dynamics of this amp aren't matched by either of my others. Very, very impressed.

 

[mikey5967]

Wes: The interesting thing about your post is this: Knowing the EICOs as well as I do, I think, that if you had put Mullard 12ax7s in the EICO, it would have surpassed the Sherwood. The EICOS were "voiced" with the Mullard tubes, as EICO had a deal with a tube importer in Queens , NY who got them great deals on the Mullard tubes. Many people are of the opinion that the EICOs reach their Zenith with Mullards.


Try the EICO with Mullards...I think you'll like it!!

 

[derekva]

Wes: The interesting thing about your post is this: Knowing the EICOs as well as I do, I think, that if you had put Mullard 12ax7s in the EICO, it would have surpassed the Sherwood. The EICOS were "voiced" with the Mullard tubes, as EICO had a deal with a tube importer in Queens , NY who got them great deals on the Mullard tubes. Many people are of the opinion that the EICOs reach their Zenith with Mullards.


Try the EICO with Mullards...I think you'll like it!!

Sorta like Fisher receivers and Telefunken 12AX7s. :thmbsp:

-D