Realistic Mach 1 (4029) upgrade x-over vs stock

[vintage4]

Read a few posts here and elsewhere that there's an upgraded crossover network for the Mach 1 loudspeaker ( 4029 ) . If anyone has ever made the upgrade please post your comments on the stock vs upgraded version . In what ways is it better than the stock version ?
Also is this upgraded x-over available for purchase ? Comments appreciated

 

[rmeade]

long discussion here
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=261425
Have not done it but the explanation is that the mod moves the crossover point to fill a void between the LF and Mid drivers

Plan to do it , soon

 

[haromaster87]

I did all of the "tier 1" mods to my Mach ones which are listed in this...

Tier 1 PDF[/QUOTE]

however, out of everything in there, the crossover mods are the best thing to do. I will say that they do make a notable difference and that I recommend them to anyone whom hasn't already done them. Compared to the stock one, I felt like it really livened the speakers up. They just seemed more ready to go, but at the same time, they took on a very balanced, nice sound.

Chances are, the capacitors in your Mach's crossovers will already be worn out, and the sound you hear will be nowhere near what they can sound like. So you'll really wanna replace the caps no matter what, might as well buy the new values. And as for purchasing it, you just have to buy the parts listed in the document I linked you up to and solder them into the crossover in place of whatever they're replacing. It's a really simple task. Do you know how to solder? If not it's really easy to learn. Look into it online if you need to. Good luck!

 

[dualcone]

I did this mod (the complete tier one upgrade) to one of my 4029s and the improvement is dazzling. However, it ate into the speaker's sensitivity, making it very insensitive. It now takes twice the power to make the same SPL. I'm not thrilled about that. Maybe just replacing the caps would be a good idea, but I'm not sure I'd do the whole upgrade. It kind of killed the speaker. While it does sound very much better in overall balance, the power required bothers me. I'm an engineer and efficiency means everything to me, so maybe it's not such a big deal to others.

 

[michiganpat]

I did this mod (the complete tier one upgrade) to one of my 4029s and the improvement is dazzling. However, it ate into the speaker's sensitivity, making it very insensitive. It now takes twice the power to make the same SPL. I'm not thrilled about that. Maybe just replacing the caps would be a good idea, but I'm not sure I'd do the whole upgrade. It kind of killed the speaker. While it does sound very much better in overall balance, the power required bothers me. I'm an engineer and efficiency means everything to me, so maybe it's not such a big deal to others.

bah....watts are cheap. throw more power at it.....

I did the tier 1 upgrade to my father in law's 4029's, and the difference was dramatic, the response was less boomy, mids and highs were much clearer with no noticable dips in the frequency response. I'd definitely recommend the modifications.

 

[Dave1027]

I did this mod (the complete tier one upgrade) to one of my 4029s and the improvement is dazzling. However, it ate into the speaker's sensitivity, making it very insensitive. It now takes twice the power to make the same SPL. I'm not thrilled about that. Maybe just replacing the caps would be a good idea, but I'm not sure I'd do the whole upgrade. It kind of killed the speaker. While it does sound very much better in overall balance, the power required bothers me. I'm an engineer and efficiency means everything to me, so maybe it's not such a big deal to others.

I don't see how. I analyzed the changes and in my opinion the speaker should be just as loud. The woofer cap was reduced. That should make it louder. Is it possible something else is going on?

 

[RS Steve]

I did the mods to the crossovers, midrange felt gasket, cabinet work (holes in mid compartment), superglue the cones, sprayed the backside of the mid horn with sound deadner, and replace foam surrounds.

I can say without a doubt it makes the speaker sound expensive, you have to hear for yourself because everyone has different likes. It does take more of a twist of the volume knob but the sound that comes out is remarkable.

I have compared them to stock 4024As, Klipsch KLF-10s, Klipsch Hereseys, The horns are much less in your face and very clear compared to stock.
I have always liked the Mach 1s for looks and for pounding out loud classic rock, so making them more refined and classy sounding has put a smile on my face.

As far as a kit to upgrade the crossovers, there isn't one but we have all the parts needed listed in the thread. I downloaded the info and have it in my computor.

I would put at least a 75 watt receiver or amp behind them, they like power and it makes them come alive. I have used my SX-950, and SX-1080 to test out mine.

I am also in the process of making aluminum plates for the plastic L-pads that crack and break along the screw holes.

 

[Copa1934]

I did this mod (the complete tier one upgrade) to one of my 4029s and the improvement is dazzling. However, it ate into the speaker's sensitivity, making it very insensitive. It now takes twice the power to make the same SPL. I'm not thrilled about that. Maybe just replacing the caps would be a good idea, but I'm not sure I'd do the whole upgrade. It kind of killed the speaker. While it does sound very much better in overall balance, the power required bothers me. I'm an engineer and efficiency means everything to me, so maybe it's not such a big deal to others.

By twice the power, what are your reference points and actual power used? Most volume controls are not linear and will increase exponentially or just the opposite. My Fisher has db value markings beginning with large minus values and going to 0 for full power. Also keep in mind the lower the rating of the receiver the more "twist of the knob" will be required. With 100wpc, my smaller receiver, I rarely ever turn the volume past 1/3 or so. Going to half volume is simply ear splitting with my system. The Fisher is even worse at 170wpc.

Only thing I can figure, aside of actual power, is the felt used for the mid. If too dense or making contact with the cone that might muffle it's performance. Just a thought is all.

 

[RickeyM]

...The Fisher is even worse at 170wpc.

That makes me

 

[sendust]

I did this mod (the complete tier one upgrade) to one of my 4029s and the improvement is dazzling. However, it ate into the speaker's sensitivity, making it very insensitive. It now takes twice the power to make the same SPL. I'm not thrilled about that. Maybe just replacing the caps would be a good idea, but I'm not sure I'd do the whole upgrade. It kind of killed the speaker. While it does sound very much better in overall balance, the power required bothers me. I'm an engineer and efficiency means everything to me, so maybe it's not such a big deal to others.

Ive done complete mods on 4024, 4024a and 4029 and in my case i found no noticeable change in power requirement, i still listen at the same levels as before the mods, i did notice however after enlarging the cab by a few cubic feet i had to move my volume from 10 to about 11 to get the same effect. Maybe something else is going on in your mod.

 

[RS Steve]

Ive done complete mods on 4024, 4024a and 4029 and in my case i found no noticeable change in power requirement, i still listen at the same levels as before the mods, i did notice however after enlarging the cab by a few cubic feet i had to move my volume from 10 to about 11 to get the same effect. Maybe something else is going on in your mod.

I agree, make sure all the connections are correct and the pots have been deoxed. I connected my L-pads wrong at first so that when you turned them up it lowered the level. I swapped the wires and all sounds correct.

My mid and tweeter are not quite as loud and in your face as before the mods and much cleaner sounding. That was what the crossover changes were for, if your used to the old harsh, and loud horns then it will take more volume to compensate.

I wish there was a way for all the Mach 1 non likers to hear one of my modded sets compared to a set of Klipsch Hereseys with new B.C. crossovers.
The modded Machs sound very similar to them, with a bit more bass and toned down horns. I'm still not able to go a day without listening to them.

 

[Copa1934]

I agree, make sure all the connections are correct and the pots have been deoxed. I connected my L-pads wrong at first so that when you turned them up it lowered the level. I swapped the wires and all sounds correct.

My mid and tweeter are not quite as loud and in your face as before the mods and much cleaner sounding. That was what the crossover changes were for, if your used to the old harsh, and loud horns then it will take more volume to compensate.

I wish there was a way for all the Mach 1 non likers to hear one of my modded sets compared to a set of Klipsch Hereseys with new B.C. crossovers.
The modded Machs sound very similar to them, with a bit more bass and toned down horns. I'm still not able to go a day without listening to them.

I often wish the same thing. Prejudice is an unfortunate reality regardless of the subject. I've always kept an open mind and try never to make comparisons except between speakers that I've actually listened to, have taken the time and effort to position properly and most of all that the speakers are in fact operating at their best. The latter, with vintage, is the toughest part. Often you have no means of reference so the best you can do is make sure the network has components that measure within tolerance and the drivers are functioning relatively close in every respect.

I'm lucky to have a friend who's something of an addict with audio as I'm routinely getting to check out things I've never heard of or only read about.

It's all in good fun, which is what it needs to be. Otherwise what's the point?

 

[canuckken]

I just installed my rebuilt crossover in my Mach One's and the difference is night and day. I did not think there would be a huge change but boy was I wrong. I now have a fantastic sounding set of speakers.

 

[canuckken]

 

[71CNY]

Anyone thought about placing the coils on the outside of the cab?

 

[b3733366]

I did everything (4024A) except: 1) felt damper in mids/horns 2) Crazy glue on the woofer cones. I also found the horns to be self sealing so didn't bother doing anything extra.

I did the unwrap method on the inductor coils so only new caps required for the x-overs.

>>by foghead>>>

I made the following unwraps to the three coils in the 4024a.

woofer 3.0mh down to 2.7 10 turns off equals 2.695mh

mid 1.4mh down to 1.0 20 turns off equals .997 mh

tweet .20mh to .15mh 32 turns off equals .148mh

Hope this helps the 4024a owners.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


I never heard Mach 1 before getting mine but when I first put them in the system I wanted then out immediately.

After they are just fantastic, they can rock hard if put on a big amp, and besides sound really fantastic, like others have said a nice clean get-up-and-go sound quality. Put them close to back wall for great bass.

Using with Akai PR-A04 + PA-W04, really nice match, but man can they rock hard when on my 225 w/ch SS monoblocks!

 

[71CNY]

So I'm wanting to do the x-over upgrade to my 4024a's. But I noticed that some of the cap values are different from what the tier 1 mod from VL stated. Will this mod work for the 4024a. Just wanting a solid yes or no. Thanks

 

[puffy09]

This is in the future for me

 

[RS Steve]

So I'm wanting to do the x-over upgrade to my 4024a's. But I noticed that some of the cap values are different from what the tier 1 mod from VL stated. Will this mod work for the 4024a. Just wanting a solid yes or no. Thanks

The 4029 had different values than the 4024a, but the caps for both in the mod are the same value in the end. The coil unwraps are different between the two, the 4029 only needs one unwrapped. You have to do alot of reading to find all the info but it's there.

 

[b3733366]

The 4029 had different values than the 4024a, but the caps for both in the mod are the same value in the end. The coil unwraps are different between the two, the 4029 only needs one unwrapped. You have to do a lot of reading to find all the info but it's there.

Right, and to elaborate ...

My understanding of this, having done the mod myself late in the game (there was already 120 pages *before* I discovered the thread), is that:

1) VideoLady201 (VL) did the Tier 1 work based upon 4029.

2) Later VL examined the 4024A and determine that the drivers (woofers in particular) were pretty much acoustically/electrically equivalent. Differences were mostly in power handling, i.e. the woofer in the 4029 has some type of metal voice coil former giving it greater power handling over the 4024A (which has a paper voice coil former if I recall correctly).

In other words VL determined the Tier 1 mod could also be performed on the 4024A. Everything the same.

The only complication is that when you compare original x-over component values between 4029 and 4024A most of the values *are different* ... so from 4024A to 4029 the latter has greater power handling *and* a modified x-over (component values).

Hence the Tier 1 mod applied to a 4029 and 4024A are the same "in the end" (as RS Steve puts it), but how you get there may differ. If keeping original coils you have to do unwraps on all three 4024A coils whereas for 4029 (I think) you have only to unwrap one coil.

---

Now at the risk putting the clouds back into what I hope is now a clear sky ...

The Mach 1 x-over resembles more a quasi-2-way than a true 3-way. The tweeter and the horn (mid) "overlap" in the highest frequencies.

VL worked on a true 3-way x-over and reported even greater improvements over Tier 1. Unfortunately the 3-way x-over never got published.

I mention this for the benefit of those that might otherwise be confused, especially if encountering mention of the 3-way after 70-80 pages!

--

"So I'm wanting to do the x-over upgrade to my 4024a's. But I noticed that some of the cap values are different from what the tier 1 mod from VL stated. Will this mod work for the 4024a. Just wanting a solid yes or no. Thanks"

All that fluff works out to a solid ... YES!

LOL