• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

Record Cleaning: Developing the Best Possible Methods

Status
Not open for further replies.
oscarinovp said:
I suspect the price of Hepastat 256 is through the roof because the pandemic has caused a huge demand for disinfectants in the health care setting. Once the pandemic is over, I suspect availability will improve and prices will drop.
Click to expand...

I guess I am a little less optimistic. The pricing is because you can’t buy smaller quantities anymore. They are forcing folks to buy to big jugs of it. I think the price is up a little as well, but how they are packaging it is the killer. Plus it seems the main supplier Brighton doesn’t make it anymore. Plus when asking folks in the hospital industry if they have access to it they have all said they switched away from it. I suspect it might be going away all together possibly?
 
guest110 said:
Yes, that is what the LOC would say, but a small amount of alcohol can be useful so it can be added to 5%. It really depends on what the condition of the record is. Some are very dirty, maybe their first clean, while others were recently cleaned but need a touch up. Some have fingerprints only, others have mildew, beer, cocaine, or whatever. The alcohol addition helps cover more of the bases.
Some difficult items often found on records are tiny droplets of paint and hard mineral deposits. These must be physically removed as the detergent and alcohol will not effect them. You need a microscope and a steady hand for this and it is always risky. Start with a fine scraping tool made of something softer than the vinyl (e.g. cardboard or rubber), then plastics, then move up to a superfine needle if need be.
Click to expand...

I've heard that a pointy wooden toothpick can also work well in this situation.
 
ripblade said:
Anyone looking for an alternative to Hepastat256 can find their quat through Making Cosmetics. This is what i use:

https://www.amazon.ca/MakingCosmetics-com-Behentrimonium-4-4oz-125g/dp/B01LW5K2QE
It's a little difficult to dissolve in water. A little heat and lots of agitation is needed. But it's cheap, lasts forever and takes up little space on the shelf.
Click to expand...

180 degrees F or 85C is what you want. Use a candy thermometer or an electric kettle with a temp readout. Works very well at that temp.
 
shawnwes said:
180 degrees F or 85C is what you want. Use a candy thermometer or an electric kettle with a temp readout. Works very well at that temp.
Click to expand...
Good to know. I've just been making a concentrate, warming it in the microwave inside a small Glad container and giving it a shake. It gets nowhere near that warm. The concentrate will last me a year, maybe more, so is not too much of a chore to mix up and is ready for when I need to make a new bottle of Dr Vince's Magic Elixir.
 
Hey Shawnwes, welcome to the conversation and you speak right.....that approach with a toothpick can yield positive results *if risky* but at that point, what's to lose, right? Your knowledge of the required temperature to provide better solubility suggests experience as well with these matters which is always appreciated.

I approach this toothpick thing very similarly, but when I first go at it, I wet the tip of the toothpick because I figure if I can get it off that way, I'll likely not do a ton of damage in the process. If it doesn't move after some agitating, then I'll move to the dry toothpick and yes, if all fails to a very sharp sewing needle but that is a last resort and under the BEST MAGNIFICATION that I have, going very, very slowly and even more gently. I am lucky to have a steady hand (50+ years of fly-tying) and can sort of "feel" my way into the groove to "pop" stuff out of it. Honestly, this is a last resort though for me.

Good stuff!
 
Last edited:
ripblade said:
Me too. I hope he's just on a well deserved break.
Click to expand...

I've learned alot reading through the first part of this thread. It's massive in length but think I'll make my way through to the end. I seem to have, at least temporarily, reduced the static attraction of every dust mote within 20 ft to zero which is a massive accomplishment IMO. Previously when moving an lp from the Kirmuss to the table I could see the dust particles flying to the record like Sentinels from The Matrix!

If the man has a Patreon I'm sending some $ his way. He's earned it.
 
shawnwes said:
I've learned alot reading through the first part of this thread. It's massive in length but think I'll make my way through to the end. I seem to have, at least temporarily, reduced the static attraction of every dust mote within 20 ft to zero which is a massive accomplishment IMO. Previously when moving an lp from the Kirmuss to the table I could see the dust particles flying to the record like Sentinels from The Matrix!

If the man has a Patreon I'm sending some $ his way. He's earned it.
Click to expand...
Static here is not even an issue anymore, and it has nothing to do with the quats. I believe it's because the Sol platter is not electrically grounded, which help the record find its own state of charge rather than being forced into another by artificial means. Hard to say. I've got records that have never been treated with quats yet they're just about as static free as the treated ones. My sweats can be clinging to my fur as I pick the record off the platter, and nothing....not one tiny little spark. Even the dust bug I use to keep the groove clean for the stylus is ungrounded, yet...no static. It's spooky, but I'm enjoying it. For ppl not so fortunate, quats are a game changer, to be sure. Or maybe it's because I've rubbed so much damned sanitizer on my hands lately they've become permanently static neutral lol.

Think you'll like it here, Shawn. More knowledgeable ppl with an interest in sharing. Beware though that the moderation is quite strict....don't be surprised if your sincere and well intentioned post disappears for some unknown reason lol.
 
One of the biggest record polluters I have found to be on my used purchases is nicotine. Some is probably on most especially the oldest more popular well played records. When a record does not look particulary bad but the sound is "off" to use a word. I have been guilty of washing the record with microfiber, water and Dawn with a rinse in osmosis water. While scrubbing I can see the color change in the suds and after a bit can feel the record grooves as they set into the cloth. Sometimes a couple washings may be needed but the difference in sound is noticeable. May not be perfect but if it's all you have......
 
Champco said:
One of the biggest record polluters I have found to be on my used purchases is nicotine. Some is probably on most especially the oldest more popular well played records. When a record does not look particulary bad but the sound is "off" to use a word. I have been guilty of washing the record with microfiber, water and Dawn with a rinse in osmosis water. While scrubbing I can see the color change in the suds and after a bit can feel the record grooves as they set into the cloth. Sometimes a couple washings may be needed but the difference in sound is noticeable. May not be perfect but if it's all you have......
Click to expand...

And tar! I give up completely cleaning the stuff on a lot of guitars and guitar amps I've restored. They don't call it tar for nothing. I can't imagine what it does to the lungs. :(
 
Mr Boochie said:
And tar! I give up completely cleaning the stuff on a lot of guitars and guitar amps I've restored. They don't call it tar for nothing. I can't imagine what it does to the lungs. :(
Click to expand...
I suppose you are more accurate then I. It is the tar more then the Nicotine.
 
ripblade said:
Anyone looking for an alternative to Hepastat256 can find their quat through Making Cosmetics. This is what i use:

https://www.amazon.ca/MakingCosmetics-com-Behentrimonium-4-4oz-125g/dp/B01LW5K2QE
It's a little difficult to dissolve in water. A little heat and lots of agitation is needed. But it's cheap, lasts forever and takes up little space on the shelf.
Click to expand...

How do we know how much to use? Not sure how you are calculating everything with this starting as a solid. Once you dissolve it in fluid how are you determining the potency of the fluid? etc
 
Trodder said:
How do we know how much to use? Not sure how you are calculating everything with this starting as a solid. Once you dissolve it in fluid how are you determining the potency of the fluid? etc
Click to expand...
I don't fret the little details. Close is good enough for me. The concentrate I mix has a slightly syrupy viscosity. This is then reduced further by adding a small amount in a bottle with the other ingredients. The exact amount doesn't matter to me as it all gets rinsed down the drain after it has done its job. I use a trace amount in the U/S tank and a trace amount in the DI rinse bottle. Not enough to prohibit beading, but enough that I wouldn't drink it. What's left is vacuumed off leaving a molecular layer....at least in theory. So far, in practice, what remains on the record doesn't show up on the stylus after play.
 
Come on @ripblade we must obsess about these things... seriously, couldn't agree with you more. Many folks in this hobby spend far too much time sweating the small stuff. Should I put my inner jackets in facing side one or side two? How do you store your discwasher? Is there a better time of the day for cleaning my LP's or should I do it at night?
 
MRL_Audio said:
Come on @ripblade we must obsess about these things... seriously, couldn't agree with you more. Many folks in this hobby spend far too much time sweating the small stuff. Should I put my inner jackets in facing side one or side two? How do you store your discwasher? Is there a better time of the day for cleaning my LP's or should I do it at night?
Click to expand...

Side one always facing the front of the cover! :whip:
 
So much excellent knowledge and advice in this thread! I've got everything ordered, just waiting on the methylamine to get started... whoops, sorry, wrong thread :rflmao: (had to do it, a little surprised no one else had)

In all seriousness, I give my sincere thanks to everyone who's contributed to this amazing trove of wisdom. I've read through the entire thread many times taking lots of notes.

I have a few OCD tendencies (but it sounds like I'm in good company here) so instead of using Hepastat in my final solution (also due to availability) I've procured the individual compounds discussed. Along with a badass and inexpensive cleaning solution I also want to finish with an understanding of what and why.

It's been 25+ years since college chemistry (and then it was primarily about the biological kind with a female) and I'm having a little difficulty wrapping my head around some of the solution calculations shared. I haven't been able to find anything online that leaves me with a firm understanding of what certainly is basic math, and hoping someone more studious than myself can share a bit of additional wisdom. Apologies if this is OT.

In my "supply cabinet" I have:

  • Tergitol 15-S-9 (liquid)
  • Behentrimonium (pellets)
    • 80% Behentrimonium chloride (404.16 g/mol)
    • 20% Ethyl alcohol (60.10 g/mol)
  • Quaternium-31 (liquid)
    • 80% Dicetyldimonium chloride (530.4 g/mol)
    • 20% Isopropyl alcohol (60.096 g/mol)
  • EDTA (powder) (452.2 g/mol)
  • 99.9% Isopropyl alcohol (liquid)
  • 95% Ethyl alcohol (liquid. 190 proof Everclear. Dry with silica gel, tapioca pearls, or 3A molecular sieve?)
  • Distilled water

The quats and EDTA are sourced from MakingCosmetics. The percentages came from the MSDS and I averaged when a range was listed. Not planning to include all the compounds. I've also purchased glassware and graduated pipettes of various sizes, motorized pipette filler, heated stir plate, and other items which seemed useful (recall, OCD tendencies lol).

My biggest question is regarding the concentration calculation for a stock solution of behentrimonium. In post #439 Vince shared dissolving 25g in 75ml of water would result in a 20% solution. Presumably this is a w/v solution, but I can't reverse engineer these amounts to values corresponding with the 80% behentrimonium in the pellets.

Would someone be able to share the starting equation to get this? Not looking for a detailed explanation, I should be able to figure that out. I just can't figure out where to start.

Thanks!
 
Hi CrEOF,

I did as you have, studied this thread and a bunch of others and then settled on a formula that was basically very close to the one Rushton, mentioned in this thread as well as here: https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/rushton-paul-diy-approach-ultrasonic-cleaning-lps/ came up with, all based on Phantomrebel's fine work. So, without getting too complicated (I know, this challenges your OCD), here is my formula and it works as intended. See the pic of the bottle it is stored in (empty IPA bottle):

IMG_4468.JPG

I found that with a 6 liter tank, the most you will want to fill it with is 5 quarts.....that takes you up to the line (crease in the inside of the tank near the top) that is presumably the full line. That is why I have (5 QTS) written there on the label I made. So, 160ml divided by 8 (number of tanks you will be able to fill) is 20ml. per tank. Then, add 150-200m. of IPA and you're good to go. Try this and see how it works for you.

Welcome to AK!

PS - If you go back and check, you will find that the percentages of each ingredient are precisely what was recommended although in my case, I had to convert so that I had the right mix for the 5 quart fill amount.
 
Last edited:
@Fishead thanks for sharing your method and the welcome! I wasn't able to find a source for the Hepastat 256 offering less than a case at significant cost, so I purchased some of the individual quats mentioned in the thread.

Maybe I'm completely overthinking this? To get the behentrimonium chloride percentage in the solution maybe I just apply the percentage from the pellets?

So to mix up a 20% (w/v) behentrimonium chloride stock solution:

(50g pellets / 200ml water) x 100 = 25% pellets

80% of the pellets by weight is behentrimonium chloride, so 80% of 25% is 20%.

So I'd end up with a 20% behentrimonium chloride and 5% ethyl alcohol solution?

It's been mentioned multiple times the percentages don't need to be exact, but I do want to be able to consistently reproduce the solutions.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom