Recording Artist with questions about vinyl

[benfolds]

This is all very helpful thank you. What I'm hearing is that many are bummed out by having two disks for an album, and why should there be the need for two disks since there were classic albums that sounded just fine all on one disk? I'll see if I can make sure we keep the integrity of the recording and keep it on one disk.

I've also been asking at record stores around the country on tour, mastering engineers, old folks, young folks. Vinyl is the medium that won't die and nothing is more important to a musician than the longevity of their music. Music fans who are passionate enough to bother to buy a less convenient medium because it makes them feel good are to be listened to. People on this forum care enough to read and answer threads about it so I'm interested.

I love listening to my old records for a number of reasons and I made this new album (with Nick Hornby writing lyrics) to be for all of those reasons - from the day we dragged in the old 2 inch machine and recorded 24 piece string sections with a few ribbon mics we strived to keep the life and dynamics in the music. But while I don't want to lose the integrity, I also don't want to alienate some with a high price tag or too many esoteric requirements. For all I knew vinyl heads all preferred to spend 50 bucks and have 2 disks 45 rpm with a few seals of quality etc.

Back in the day it seems good vinyl was easier to achieve for a number of reasons. We're losing the skill slowly, the equipment is disappearing along with the demand and technicians.
The CD era has encouraged longer programs and radio has encouraged louder tracks. Musicians have catered to both (because we just want to be loved haha)

And so there are crutches like DMM, 180 vinyl and so on which are big advertising points... they don't HAVE to be crutches though. They're good things. I believe its possible to make records now that sound BETTER than old records by building on what we've learned and using the best technology... it just might cost a shitload. These kinds of technology don't make up for bad operators and bad music.

I'll compromise where I can and try to get a reasonably priced record out that basically sounds like what we recorded! Shouldn't be too hard....haha

Thank you all for your time. And feel free to keep putting your 2 cents in. We'll be cutting this mother in a couple weeks.

Ben

 

[audiodon]

I'm in my 50s and this is my second go-around with vinyl.

As a consumer I can offer this:

I've seen any number of numbered limited pressings and you could probably retrieve your money if you tried that marketing method. With good material and retaining some of the dynamic range all of us close listener types would look for, you'd have a small audience willing to go to a premium price for that. I find myself willing to pay a premium if I know it's pressed from high bit rate digital files or analog recording techniques.
Reference: Something like Porcupine Tree's "The Incident".

I know I bought the first Vampire Weekend disc on vinyl and I was very disappointed with what appeared to be a low resolution runoff of the CD pressing. It turned me off to the band and it may not have been their fault.

Personally, I just gave away the one 45 RPM disc set I still had . . . a remaster of a Metallica disk called Master of Puppets from the '80s. Too much work turning it over or putting on another disc after every other track.

Given the choice, I'll typically buy vinyl over buying a CD, even at $10-$15 more, because the vinyl often are not as heavily compressed in the mastering process.

I've seen a number of people haul out discs or disc sets such as Beck's "Sea Change" for listening sessions. I've even seen folks with original pressings buy the Mofi remaster, but time will tell on that for your offering.

How much of the question is if you can retrieve your investment? If the experts are telling you this effort is worthy of special attention, it probably is.

Just remember that many steady selling records become go to records over time, so you may be able to revisit the high end reissue later as long as the master files remain within your control.

Some of Wilco's '90s stuff has been recently reissued on two disk 33 RPM vinyl (sometimes 65+ minutes of music though), so it can be done. They are tapping an interesting underground market and this probably wouldn't be happening if the records didn't sell.

I hope you can find a sweet spot where you can do what you want and make some money on this project. I'll be looking for this disc. You've already sold one.

 

[B3Nut]

Please keep us all posted, I'll be eagerly awaiting the new record. I dig your piano playing, love the fire and energy. (I'm a Hammond player as you've probably guessed. )

Do make sure they preserve the dynamic range, at least on the vinyl release. I understand it can be a losing battle with CD releases what with the labels wanting everything as close to 0dB full-scale as they can slam it.

Welcome to AK Ben, and I'm looking forward to hearing the new record.

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

 

[dnewma04]

I have a copy of a lacquer recording that Len Horowitz (mentioned earlier) recorded and I have to say, he does excellent work. Definitely worth chatting with.

 

[cdfac]

from the thought you're putting into this project to preserve sonics as much as possible, i can tell you that i'll be fine with whatever setup you ultimately choose, and i will almost surely buy after hearing about it here. i have no vinyl newer than 1990 anyway and i've got to start somewhere!

 

[Bob_in_OKC]

I'd say if it's going to be two disks regardless of speed, definitely make it 45 RPM. 45 is a very prevalent feature on turntables old and new. If 33 RPM could get it onto one disk, that would be a different matter. The best-sounding new record in my collection is a re-issue that said it's 140g. It sounds better to me than the 180g records I have from the same re-issue series, so I suppose it's all about the recording and mastering...not the weight of the vinyl for me. I guess that speaks well of the Abbey Road idea.

 

[thedelihaus]

Ben,

Very mich loved your Snoop Dogg cover- one of my favorites. I have it on 45.

As for DMM, it's a mixed bag, it seems. The highly glamorized blue note audiophile pressing DMMs are considered inferior to the standard blue note releases. But I've also spun some Screaming Blue Messiahs and other DMMs and enjoyed them.

And while 45rpm 12" records sound fantastic, as do half speed masters and perhaps even hot-stampers and Quiex vinyl, I feel the market is limited for these releases.

A quality 33rpm record on 180-200g vinyl, that was properly mastered and of good quality vinyl, can sound wonderful, and I'd imagine the record would be done justice on that format.

My biggest gripe with new releases are quality control first- I have received new records wth finger prints, scuffs and warps, poor pressing/excessive inner groove noise, and even human hair in the sleeve.

Another is mastering issues- vinyl requires a certain approach to sound right.

A competent manufacturing plant and an experienced or talented mastering engineer should be able to bring a quality 33rpm to the table for you.


Cheers, and thanks for the excellent music,

Paul

 

[Dr. Mordo]

Welcome to the forum!

I really think the most important thing you can do here is to keep the mix as un-compressed as possible, and then give it to Bob Ludwig to master and give him the freedom to make it sound as good as he can.

Those two steps will outweigh any technical advantages of different pressing techniques and vinyl weights. The loudness war and vinyl simply don't mix.

I will very likely buy this LP. I am at a point now where I shop for new music on vinyl before I'll buy it in any other format. But I agree that price point is important. $20 or less I'll happily pay. Even as much as $25. But more than that and I've have to consider buying a cd instead.

I think that LPs are coming back. Those of us who frequent thrift stores and garage sales have noticed that LPs have started selling again in large numbers. People are re-learning that records are very cool.

 

[jami w.]

im not much of a recording master with the info the rest of these guys can help, sorry but, what i can say is that in the end you'll do what you feel is right. for both yourself and your fans. i buy all types of listening formats cds, vinyl and cassettes.

you have a very well given gift for making music that comes from your feeling, and we in alot of ways can relate to you. in the end weither you release 33 or 45's do a limited production run see how it goes, if the feed back is positive then go for a full run

so what im trying to say here is yes asking the fans is aweome!! but also go with your heart and mind on this. because i think you'll be very pleased with the outcome !!!!
and welcome to ak!!

 

[benb]

Hi Ben, from another Ben!

I don't have a feel of what you should do here, but it looks like you're looking for input far and wide. If you're familiar with Usenet, I suggest asking this on rec.audio.pro where I've seen occasional talk of LP mastering over the years. (if you're NOT familiar with Usenet newsgroups, be warned it's not moderated, there's always spam and the occasional troll). Here's Google's "groups" portal to rec.audio.pro where you can read and (after registering) post:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.pro/topics

Scott Dorsey there has cut LP's, and produced a ten-year-anniversary compilation LP for the group about eight years ago. I bought two copies, and that's the last NEW LP I recall buying (mainly because I don't know where to buy them other than online). rec.audio.pro used to have legends such as Bob Olhsson and Harvey Gerst, but over the years they and others have moved over to web-based recording forums. You can search their names and find more wisdom on the web forums where they've posted. I don't know if http://gearslutz.com or http://prosoundweb.com have dedicated forums oriented to vinyl (I haven't even read those forums in years), but with the growing interest from artists and fans, perhaps they should.

 

[boreas]

at 45 minutes it will probably need to be two discs anyway.

Bingo! Forty-five minutes@33.3 RPM is really pushing it for one 12" disc so 2 discs would be the way to go regardless of speed. Given that, the added fidelity of 45 RPM is "free" in the sense that you haven't given up any level of user convenience to get it.

And welcome, Ben.

John

 

[Trower]

Ben I must say I wish more recording artists were as proactive in getting well mastered good sounding music out there as you! Love your stuff:thmbsp:

But now on to your current dilemma......

I will say that I love the 45 albums I have and have heard, they just sound soooooo good! And if you have a 45 minuet album you'll need 2 disks anyhow so why not go 45. So if its not too much more I would say go 45, you'd make some of us here very very happy!

Jack Whites label, Third Man Records, has been tops in my book as far as sound quality. You may want to talk to Jack, if your able, about what he does, as I feel he would be able to really help ya and is someone who cares about sound quality.

Hope my ramblings were beneficial to ya! Be sure and give us a heads up about what your going to do, and if you'll have any cool pre-orders on your soon to be released album!

Thanks for making some good music,
Nick

 

[the architect]

Jack Whites label, Third Man Records, has been tops in my book as far as sound quality. You may want to talk to Jack, if your able, about what he does, as I feel he would be able to really help ya and is someone who cares about sound quality.

he has all of his records pressed at united record pressing in nashville, TN. like i said, they do a great job. even cheaper than RTI. if you decide to split it between two records that will cost more. jeff buckley's 'grace' is somewhere around the 50 minute mark and was pressed on one record. sounds great even though it was cut at a lower volume because of its length.

i for one will be buying it no matter what you choose to do. its pretty cool to have someone like yourself stop by and ask our opinions. vinyl is the way to go, but have you considered releasing a reel to reel version?! :scratch2: hehe

 

[dnewma04]

I just wanted to add that a good recording is a good recording. A 45, 33 1/3 or even a CD will sound fantastic if the mastering is done well. I wouldn't worry so much about the 45 RPM thing if it's going to push the price up significantly unless you want to do both, an expensive limited edition 45 rpm copy and a more traditional 33 1/3 RPM for the common folks who probably don't have good enough equipment to hear the difference.

 

[Sam Cogley]

Some random thoughts...

Going beyond 180g -- can it be done with low defect rate? If so, by who and what is their track record. I think 180g may be worth it so long as the sq of the pressing/mastering/etc backs it up.

I'm not sure who could pull it off now, but I have some late 40s/early 50s LPs that weigh 210g or more and sound great. Considering the number of 140g or less pressings that sound great, I wouldn't worry too much about vinyl weight - the quality of the pressing will matter much more than the amount of vinyl involved.

Re the 180g, as a consumer, I don't see the value. I don't mind a 180g pressing, but I've got 140 g (and even 70g!) pressings that sound just as good. From a marketing standpoint, you'll be able to charge a higher price for 180g, but I think a lot of that will end up absorbing the extra cost from the pressing plant.

What I'd do (if I were the product manager at your label) would be to research 180g vs. standard weight pressings from similar artists released in the past year or two and see a) what the typical MSRP is for each and b) what sales are like for each. It's difficult to make money on records despite the vinyl resurgence, unfortunately, so it's possible that going standard weight will save you enough money to make the whole effort financially viable.

You might also consider your fanbase--are you going for older well-heeled fans who wouldn't blink at buying a blinged-out pressing for $25 or $30, or are you trying to reach people in their teens and 20s who might prefer to spend $15 to $20 and who don't care about such niceties.

Anyway, hope this helps--it's great to see musicians caring about this kind of stuff!

Great advice! :thmbsp:

I love 180 gram vinyl; back in the 70’s vinyl’s weight was more robust between 110 – 170 grams you really could feel the weight of the records. In the 80’s the pressings started to get really thin, I have a bunch from that era 80 - 100 grams. Anything to save a buck… I guess… At this weight I have found records warp more easily even stacked correctly over time. Some people say 180 grams tracks and sounds better…Maybe it does, but I haven’t done any double blind testing to confirm this. I would keep the speed at 33 1/3 because this will ensure compatibility to everyone in your fan base.

I think you have that off a bit, the 60s were the heyday of mid-weight, quality vinyl pressings. The 70s brought us such dubious inventions as RCA's "Dynaflex," while the 80s seemed to find a reasonable compromise for mass-market releases - in the 120-140g range.

This is all very helpful thank you. What I'm hearing is that many are bummed out by having two disks for an album, and why should there be the need for two disks since there were classic albums that sounded just fine all on one disk? I'll see if I can make sure we keep the integrity of the recording and keep it on one disk.

As long as it won't seriously compromise the music, one disc is preferable, IMHO. If you need to move to two discs, another idea might be to include a couple of "bonus" tracks on the vinyl release - live tracks, alternate cuts, stuff that didn't quite make the regular cut (i.e. the recent Stones re-release of Exile on Main Street), etc.

I've also been asking at record stores around the country on tour, mastering engineers, old folks, young folks. Vinyl is the medium that won't die and nothing is more important to a musician than the longevity of their music. Music fans who are passionate enough to bother to buy a less convenient medium because it makes them feel good are to be listened to. People on this forum care enough to read and answer threads about it so I'm interested.

It's great to see a big-name recording artist who is that concerned about and in-touch with the fans. Kudos to you, sir! :thmbsp:

I love listening to my old records for a number of reasons and I made this new album (with Nick Hornby writing lyrics) to be for all of those reasons - from the day we dragged in the old 2 inch machine and recorded 24 piece string sections with a few ribbon mics we strived to keep the life and dynamics in the music. But while I don't want to lose the integrity, I also don't want to alienate some with a high price tag or too many esoteric requirements. For all I knew vinyl heads all preferred to spend 50 bucks and have 2 disks 45 rpm with a few seals of quality etc.

As has been mentioned elsewhere, some artists have chosen to release a standard, reasonably priced vinyl edition as well as a fancy, heavyweight "limited edition" release. It's an option worth looking into - the people with very high-end vinyl playback systems and the "collector" types will be drawn to the more expensive version while the music remains available in great quality for the fan of more average means.

Back in the day it seems good vinyl was easier to achieve for a number of reasons. We're losing the skill slowly, the equipment is disappearing along with the demand and technicians.
The CD era has encouraged longer programs and radio has encouraged louder tracks. Musicians have catered to both (because we just want to be loved haha)

Fortunately, things might be heading back upwards a bit. Pressing engineers are teaching younger people their trade, parts are being made to bring pressing machines idled for years back online, and the LP has re-entered the mass consciousness, even being sold at such chains as Best Buy. Quality control still needs some work, but I have yet to get my hands on a bad modern pressing.

Jack Whites label, Third Man Records, has been tops in my book as far as sound quality. You may want to talk to Jack, if your able, about what he does, as I feel he would be able to really help ya and is someone who cares about sound quality.

he has all of his records pressed at united record pressing in nashville, TN. like i said, they do a great job. even cheaper than RTI.

I was going to mention the notion of talking to Jack White - he works in Nashville and seems to be very passionate about the vinyl formats.

Best of luck with the new album!

 

[dnewma04]

The compression issue with the music is a funny thing, I threw in some of your recordings and did some analysis and on average, the songs I tended to like most had very little clipping (under 100 clips) and a dynamic range of 12-15dB (perfectly acceptable for the style of music). Some of the songs I never took to have 20-30k clips and dynamic range closer to 7dB. IMO, the focus should be on retrieving some of the dynamic range for a better sense of musical realism.

 

[jdwk]

Welcome to the forum!

From Wikipedia:



Do you happen to have any Scientology friends? Maybe butter up Tom Cruise with free CDs and T-shirts and you'll have an "in"!

I agree with others on here. 180 Gram and 45's aren't needed and < $20 per album would be amazing. I see Black Keys albums for $15 all the time and wonder why other bands can't do the same.

what would the church of scientology want with a DMM lathe?

 

[Sam Cogley]

what would the church of scientology want with a DMM lathe?

The post you quoted answers that question with a quote from Wikipedia.

 

[similost]

Since a lot off people are using other bands and artists as examples of their mastering and vinyl LP quality, I can point you to one LP I've gotten recently of a new band and a new realease. I've come across a lot re-releases that the quality wasn't so great, but this new LP I bought really left me disappointed, especially for who was involved. Loved the music, but not the sound quality.

If you can, take a listen to Them Crooked Vultures on vinyl. I don't know what happened in the process, but the dynamics aren't there, in a lot of places it sounds very compressed, and at times even muddy somewhat. I don't believe it's a problem with the vinyl or pressing, but rather the mastering. I think this LP would give you a good idea of everything not to do sound wise.

I would have rather bought their LP in 45 speed, and on thin vinyl if it would have been better recorded and pressed. Seemed their big marketing ploy for the vinyl was stamping 180g all over it.

What I'm getting at is, I believe that most people who are seriously into the sound of vinyl, would rather fore go all the new vinyl marketing flash, and just have a great sounding piece of vinyl. I also believe that if they do have to flip a couple LP's more often because of the speed, they would rather have that than a sub-par sound. However, you then start worrying about cost considerations....

 

[erniejade]

1st Welcome and I am a fan of your music. Saw you a few weeks ago at the Vic in Chicago.


The Killers produced a box set that I have of all 45's ( 7") of the 1st album. While the sound quality is good on it, it is a pain only having one song per 7". I do own some 12" at 45 and the sound quality is very good.

180 G and up.. I have had good and bad luck with them. I have a few that sound fantastic ( Jack Johnson, Ray LaMontagne), and many many that sound horrible!!! U2 re-master of the Joshua Tree on vinyl 180 G was terrible! The remastered CD sounded 1000 % better and so did the original LP back in the 80's!

On another note,,,
Robert Plant Alison Krauss vinyl sounded fantastic. I am not sure what they did on the mastering on it but, the vinyl regular weight

So is 180 better? It all depends on the mastering and quality control when it goes to production.

Now I know Mobile Fidelity just does re-mastering but,the
Mobile Fidelity Gain 2 180 or 45 both sounded great but the 45 versions are very limited and in the $50 range!


Is the extra $ worth DDM,,, YES. I never once had a issue with a recording that was DDM.


.