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Scott R75s rebuild questions

The reason to use a DBT is if something should cause a short (say a solder bridge or you installed an electrolytic backward) the excess current is taken up by the bulb rather than whatever components are in the way of the short. This can save you major headaches as a shorted component rarely only destroys itself. I've been in many amps and unless the design says no DBT I'd never consider starting one up after repairs without it. One silly mistake can have you set back a few days and out a pile of components (ask me how I know).

Ok that's helpful. A fuller account than I got from this explanation, which emphasized it as a start up test. I'll set about building one.

(I'm wondering if my grandfather had one built into his bench. He definitely had a hand wound isolation transformer built in. I removed that and carry it around through many moves in an old XT power supply box. Just because.)
 
I see only the Photobucket "3rd Party Hosting has been disabled" graphic. Even without pics the hot/neutral admonition is helpful!
 
You can install a simple Chrome browser extention to see the removed pictures from Photobucket...

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/photobucket-embedded-imag/ogipgokcopooepeipngiikdkpmcpkaon

Here the first picture from OverLoad's nice thread...

2h6y4ck.jpg
 
Yeah, build a dbt....no reason not to.

I still say it makes sense to replace readily available, dirt cheap transistors...shotgun style. But, to each his own.

Not so readily available transistors, well try to get by without replacing.
 
I still say it makes sense to replace readily available, dirt cheap transistors...shotgun style. But, to each his own.

Without meaning to be critical, I have to completely disagree with this statement - it is simply not good advice IMHO, particularly for someone new to the hobby / just starting a "First Rebuild", to quote the OP.

I'm far from an 'expert', but I've not read of any general ageing or deterioration which could be expected with the vast majority of transistors(*), so why shotgun change them if it's not needed ? As far as I can see, that's just a recipe for creating more problems than it's likely to solve, e.g., unnecessary thermal stress to old pcb tracks (esp. from someone inexperienced with soldering, and a 44 years old amp), potentially incorrect replacement of parts, introduction of new faults (solder bridges, etc.), and so on - simply too many added potential risks, for minimal if any benefit.

(*) There are exceptions, and known 'bad' transistors, prone to problems and early failure, which should obviously be replaced whenever they're found - the following thread would be a good starting reference.
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index....ilure-prone-whatever-and-replacements.731653/

For what it's worth, I agree entirely with Roger2 & OMGCat! - fix it first then do any maintenance work you want afterwards.
 
I'm far from an 'expert', but I've not read of any general ageing or deterioration which could be expected with the vast majority of transistors(*), so why shotgun change them if it's not needed ? As far as I can see, that's just a recipe for creating more problems than it's likely to solve, e.g., unnecessary thermal stress to old pcb tracks (esp. from someone inexperienced with soldering, and a 44 years old amp), potentially incorrect replacement of parts, introduction of new faults (solder bridges, etc.), and so on - simply too many added potential risks, for minimal if any benefit.
If you are the type that leaves solder bridges, can't solder without damaging traces, can't place components correctly, etc. then you shouldent be doing this kind of work without more practice.

I have read echowars talk about drifting transistors and replacing them all in restorations.
 
If you are the type that leaves solder bridges, can't solder without damaging traces, can't place components correctly, etc. then you shouldent be doing this kind of work without more practice.

I have read echowars talk about drifting transistors and replacing them all in restorations.

I am calling BS on that assertion. Post links or retract that statement @z-adamson.

Perhaps EW said something along the lines of.....if input differential transistors' gain has drifted to the point where it is not possible to obtain decent DC offset, then they (the two diff input trans) should be replaced. I am speculating of course, but that would make sense. But whatever Echowars' comments were that you read, I think that your interpretation of those comments was incorrect and was biased to support what you want to believe.
 
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Re-capping an old amp....is a good thing. Generally acknowledged, with a few still opposed to the practice, yet generally accepted by the AK community as a positive thing overall.

Most of us here love our vintage amps. And some of us especially love doing what we can to preserve and protect them, and sometimes improve them if we can. Re-capping is something that a person with little or no knowledge, of electronics in general or amplifier circuits specifically, can do successfully. All that is required is soldering skills, coming into the forums and asking what kind of caps to use, and choosing whom to trust among those who offer opinions.

It feels good when it is completed, doesn't it? Those clean new caps in there, the amp making music that you would swear sounds tighter, crisper and more alive. I have been there. I believe. And it does feel good. There is a sense of accomplishment at having ventured into the realm of electronics and successfully completed a mission. The amp sounding better and protected from potential failing-cap-related disaster. A good feeling indeed.



But...why not do more? Get some more of that good feeling going? Let's see, well the transistors are old too. Sometimes they fail too, just like old caps do. Lists of substitutions are out there in the forums. Transistors are available at DK and Mouser just like caps are. Let's just trash can all of 'em,out with the old, in with the new! So yeah, why not? Let's do this!


No. Don't.


I believe that this whole shotgun re-transistoring phenomenon is a fad. And the reason it has become a fad is described above.

Capacitors are relatively simple devices. Their incorporation into vintage amp designs was such that wide tolerances of parameters would be acceptable. It is generally acknowledged that electrolytic caps will dry out over time and eventually fail. So it is not surprising that shotgun re-cap projects performed by hobbyist rebuilders (like myself) are usually successful and beneficial.

But transistors are much more complex than caps. The functions of transistors in amplifier circuits are much more complex and are more interdependent on other components than the functions of caps. It is not generally acknowledged that transistors will eventually fail (within any reasonable time span) in ways similar to capacitors. A more general consensus would be that transistors will function properly for a much longer time than caps, with a few exceptions that are known trouble makers.

And the problem is that transistor substitutions can lead to issues. I would particularly believe that transistor substitutions done by those with little to no knowledge of the complexities of amplifier circuits, would be strong candidates for failure of some kind. Some type of problems can be difficult to discern. Sure, if it blows up, then we know something was wrong. But other, more subtle, issues are possible. An amp can oscillate, perhaps intermittently or only under certain conditions, or bandwidth could be diminished, or perhaps other types of problems. The point is....for those with little knowledge of amp circuits, or the ability to test those circuits, it is best to not go mucking around into areas that are not fully understood.

DISCLAIMER: No, I am not an expert on transistors or amplifier circuits.

But I do know enough to to grasp the complexities involved. I have read forum comments by those much wiser than myself, both here and at DIYaudio, warning against doing the type of wholesale transistor replacement that is being suggested here.
 
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Perhaps EW said something along the lines of.....if input differential transistors' gain has drifted to the point where it is not possible to obtain decent DC offset, then they (the two diff input trans) should be replaced. I am speculating of course, but that would make sense. But whatever Echowars' comments were that you read, I think that your interpretation of those comments was incorrect and was biased to support what you want to believe.

That was my read on the Echowars statement as well, just you've summarized it much more succinctly than I would have :thumbsup:

If you are the type that leaves solder bridges, can't solder without damaging traces, can't place components correctly, etc. then you shouldent be doing this kind of work without more practice.

I was more concerned for the OP, who specifically titled the thread "First Rebuild Questions", and who I imagine probably has little experience soldering 40+ yr. old boards, but does quite value his Grandfather's receiver.... Personally, with more than 50 years soldering experience, I think I could probably just about handle the soldering...but I'll keep practising anyway.

Overall, I think Stephen Hawking said it better than most "The greatest enemy of knowledge, is not ignorance, it's the illusion of knowledge"

@Scott75s1974 - good luck with the rebuild, work through it slowly, methodically, and with care, and you'll have a beautiful result

:lurk:
 
Re-capping an old amp....is a good thing. Generally acknowledged, with a few still opposed to the practice, yet generally accepted by the AK community as a positive thing overall.

Most of us here love our vintage amps. And some of us especially love doing what we can to preserve and protect them, and sometimes improve them if we can. Re-capping is something that a person with little or no knowledge, of electronics in general or amplifier circuits specifically, can do successfully. All that is required is soldering skills, coming into the forums and asking what kind of caps to use, and choosing whom to trust among those who offer opinions.

It feels good when it is completed, doesn't it? Those clean new caps in there, the amp making music that you would swear sounds tighter, crisper and more alive. I have been there. I believe. And it does feel good. There is a sense of accomplishment at having ventured into the realm of electronics and successfully completed a mission. The amp sounding better and protected from potential failing-cap-related disaster. A good feeling indeed.



But...why not do more? Get some more of that good feeling going? Let's see, well the transistors are old too. Sometimes they fail too, just like old caps do. Lists of substitutions are out there in the forums. Transistors are available at DK and Mouser just like caps are. Let's just trash can all of 'em,out with the old, in with the new! So yeah, why not? Let's do this!


No. Don't.


I believe that this whole shotgun re-transistoring phenomenon is a fad. And the reason it has become a fad is described above. And that many of the people doing this shotgun re-transistoring, and who are encouraging others to join in, are those with little experience or knowledge.

Capacitors are relatively simple devices. Their incorporation into vintage amp designs was such that wide tolerances of parameters would be acceptable. It is generally acknowledged that electrolytic caps will eventually fail. So it is not surprising that shogun re-cap projects performed by hobbyist rebuilders (like myself) are usually successful.

But transistors are much more complex than caps. The functions of transistors in amplifier circuits are much more complex and are more interdependent on other components than the functions of caps. It is not generally acknowledged that transistors will eventually fail (within any reasonable time span) in ways similar to capacitors. A more general consensus would be that transistors will function properly for a much longer time than caps, with a few exceptions that are known trouble makers.

And the problem is that transistor substitutions can lead to issues. I would particularly believe that transistor substitutions done by those with little to no knowledge of the complexities of amplifier circuits, would be strong candidates for failure of some kind. The thing is, some type of problems can be difficult to discern. Sure, if it blows up, then we know something was wrong. But other, more subtle, issues are possible. An amp can oscillate, perhaps intermittently or only under certain conditions, or bandwidth could be diminished, or perhaps other types of problems. The point is....for those with little knowledge of amp circuits, or the ability to test those circuits, it is best to not go mucking around into areas that are not fully understood.

DISCLAIMER: No, I am not an expert on transistors or amplifier circuits.

But I do know enough to to grasp the complexities involved. I have read forum comments by those much wiser than myself, both here and at DIYaudio, warning against doing the type of wholesale transistor replacement that is being suggested here.

Geeez....

I find it quite simple once a suitable replacement is found.

Base, Emitter, Collector

Get the data sheets. Put each lead at the correct solder pad. Solder into place.

How hard can it be?

I am no expert on transistors...but....

Nevermind, you win. Transistor replacement is VERY complex. Don't go there. Bad things will happen.
 
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No, it is not simple z-adamson. Believe what you like, but please don't try to influence others in areas which you, admittedly, do not understand.

One example...

Again, I am not an expert.

VAS transistor will have a Miller cap (aka Cdom or dominant pole compensation) across the B and C legs. z-adamson, do you know what a Miller cap is? VAS? As I understand it, the Miller cap compensates for, or dominates, capacitance in one of the junctions of the VAS transistor, but it directly affects the entire bandwidth as well as the stability of an amp. It is small value, usually ceramic cap, seldom if ever replaced in a recap, generally disregarded and ignored. But its role is critical. The value of the Miller cap is chosen to balance between amplifier stability and overall frequency response and/or distortion. Too large or too small of value on the Miller cap will have negative implications. Sorry, I do not understand it well enough to describe all of the implications. But to give you an idea of the level of complexity involved, and importance of this cap, here is a quote from Bob Cordell's book:

"Miller compensation uses local feedback to roll-off high-frequency response of the amplifier. The gain that is 'thrown away' acts to linearize the VAS with shunt feedback. ......It stabilizes the global negative feedback loop by rolling off the high frequency gain of the amplifier so that the gain around the feedback loop falls below unity before enough phase lag builds up to cause instability."


Yeah. Way above my head. But I do get that what is being described here is critical to proper amp function, and that a balance is necessary which is achieved by choosing the correct Cdom value based on whatever VAS transistor is being used.

The thing is, that proper Miller cap value is dependent on the Cob of the VAS cap.

The thing is, that transistor substitution lists never mention Cob. I believe that a transistor with a different Cob subbed into the VAS position, without regard to the Miller cap value, could potentially lead to issues, and such issues may not be something that would be readily apparent without proper test equipment and procedures.

The thing is, the transistor substitution lists also do not take into consideration a transistor's position or circuit function. Depending on the role(s) of a transistor in a circuit, different parameters become more significant. Transistor X may sub OK for transistor Y in some cases, but not others.

The thing is, that in the schematics for some of the amps that I have worked on, lots of transistors other than the VAS also have Miller caps. Their function I do not know. But I do assume that the value of those Miller caps was based on the Cob of whatever transistors they are tied to. And again, Cob is not mentioned in the substitution lists.

So anyway, what is written above is just ONE example of why it is my belief that transistor shotgunning is not a good policy, and why I view (and use, when necessary) the substitution lists with extreme caution. I have little doubt that there are other potential issues involved in wholesale replacement of transistors. Transistors that were originally chosen, very carefully, by someone with much greater knowledge than myself and 99% of the people who post in audio forums, to be a part of a highly complex system with intricate inter-dependencies....

Bottom line, if one does not understand potential implications of an action, then do not take that action if it is not necessary.
 
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@Scott75s1974 I apologize for the derailment of your thread. Your project is important to you, and understandably so. I saw what was going on and wanted to offer you an alternative viewpoint as you are in the process of learning new information and making decisions.
 
No, it is not simple z-adamson. Believe what you like, but please don't try to influence others in areas which you, admittedly, do not understand.

One example...

Again, I am not an expert.

VAS transistor will have a Miller cap (aka Cdom or dominant pole compensation) across the B and C legs. z-adamson, do you know what a Miller cap is? VAS? As I understand it, the Miller cap compensates for, or dominates, capacitance in one of the junctions of the VAS transistor, but it directly affects the entire bandwidth as well as the stability of an amp. It is small value, usually ceramic cap, seldom if ever replaced in a recap, generally disregarded and ignored. But its role is critical. The value of the Miller cap is chosen to balance between amplifier stability and overall frequency response and/or distortion. Too large or too small of value on the Miller cap will have negative implications. Sorry, I do not understand it well enough to describe all of the implications. But to give you an idea of the level of complexity involved, and importance of this cap, here is a quote from Bob Cordell's book:

"Miller compensation uses local feedback to roll-off high-frequency response of the amplifier. The gain that is 'thrown away' acts to linearize the VAS with shunt feedback. ......It stabilizes the global negative feedback loop by rolling off the high frequency gain of the amplifier so that the gain around the feedback loop falls below unity before enough phase lag builds up to cause instability."


Yeah. Way above my head. But I do get that what is being described here is critical to proper amp function, and that a balance is necessary which is achieved by choosing the correct Cdom value based on whatever VAS transistor is being used.

The thing is, that proper Miller cap value is dependent on the Cob of the VAS cap.

The thing is, that transistor substitution lists never mention Cob. I believe that a transistor with a different Cob subbed into the VAS position, without regard to the Miller cap value, could potentially lead to issues, and such issues may not be something that would be readily apparent without proper test equipment and procedures.

The thing is, the transistor substitution lists also do not take into consideration a transistor's position or circuit function. Depending on the role(s) of a transistor in a circuit, different parameters become more significant. Transistor X may sub OK for transistor Y in some cases, but not others.

The thing is, that in the schematics for some of the amps that I have worked on, lots of transistors other than the VAS also have Miller caps. Their function I do not know. But I do assume that the value of those Miller caps was based on the Cob of whatever transistors they are tied to. And again, Cob is not mentioned in the substitution lists.

So anyway, what is written above is just ONE example of why it is my belief that transistor shotgunning is not a good policy, and why I view (and use, when necessary) the substitution lists with extreme caution. I have little doubt that there are other potential issues involved in wholesale replacement of transistors. Transistors that were originally chosen, very carefully, by someone with much greater knowledge than myself and 99% of the people who post in audio forums, to be a part of a highly complex system with intricate inter-dependencies....

Bottom line, if one does not understand potential implications of an action, then do not take that action if it is not necessary.
In the last 8 months I have replaced all the caps, diodes, transistors in 12 amps/preamps/receivers/eq/active crossovers.

Excellent results every time.

Not a single issue. I find replacing transistors no different than replacing caps, just one more leg to solder, desolder and a little more research in finding the replacement part.
 
@z-adamson You have stated in this thread that you do not have adequate knowledge to select transistor substitutions. I believe it would be safe to infer from that, that you also do not have adequate knowledge to test for oscillation or any other types of potential issues. You do not KNOW that your project amps do not issues, either currently or developing over time, as a result of your simplistic approach. A year ago you were new to AK and were in here asking for soldering advice. I participated in that thread.

Reported "excellent results" is a highly subjective analysis. There are compelling psychological motivations that bias ones' perception of results. One goes into a project thinking that results will be positive, and most of the time the results they perceive (and proudly report) are in line with what was originally anticipated, barring the occasional melt down. When judging sound quality of music, it is well known that perception and opinions are all over the map. Hard work, time invested, the gratification of reporting success to others in the forums....all contribute to make any one person's self analysis of their own work just about meaningless.
 
I measure the outcome of the work with a scopemeter, sine/square wave generator, distortion analyzer. Also, steady bias and offset.

And no I do not select my own transistors. But I haven't needed to either.
 
@z-adamson I am not here to argue with you. I have better things to do with my time than exchange posts with someone who mistakenly believes that they know it all, and who is not willing to consider evidence to the contrary. You do as you please with your projects. It makes me sad to think about those amps, and I would not give you .10¢ for all of them. But it is your right to do to them what you see fit. Most importantly, I believe that it is ethically wrong to push your views onto others when you can offer zero proof that you know anything at all.

I feel that the OP of this thread is smart enough to sort through all of this, and make wise decisions. And I know that you are determined to have the last word here so I will say no more. I'm out. Best of luck to you z
 
@z-adamson I am not here to argue with you. I have better things to do with my time than exchange posts with someone who mistakenly believes that they know it all, and who is not willing to consider evidence to the contrary. You do as you please with your projects. It makes me sad to think about those amps, and I would not give you .10¢ for all of them. But it is your right to do to them what you see fit. Most importantly, I believe that it is ethically wrong to push your views onto others when you can offer zero proof that you know anything at all.

I feel that the OP of this thread is smart enough to sort through all of this, and make wise decisions. And I know that you are determined to have the last word here so I will say no more. I'm out. Best of luck to you z
How do I think I "know it all" if I don't even pick out my own replacement transistors for no longer available transistors? I rely on others because I don't know it all. I thought I made that clear.

You are stooping to petty insults by placing low value on my amps.
 
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