Sennheiser HD-600 & HD-650 comparison video
- Thread starter HiFiGuy528
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HiFiGuy528
Super Member
I'll watch your review when I get home. Thanks for the link.
darki
Member
I used to have both the 600 and 650, in my experience the 650 has a bit more bass in the lower regions compared to the 600 and i also think that the tweeter was a bit more enjoyable. But.. if i took my 650 cable and used that on my 600 i couldnt possible tell ANY difference between them although i did several blind tests! So i suggest, buy the 600 and buy a 650 cable 
If you think you lack bass from these headphones you could always try this mod as well (i did it on my headphones) Removing the foam from the back of the driver: http://apuresound.com/hdsennmod.html
I also used some damping mat (the mat you use to dampen you car, like dynamat) to stiffen up the plastic on the piece that covers you ears..not sure if that made such an improvement in the sound tho..
If you think you lack bass from these headphones you could always try this mod as well (i did it on my headphones) Removing the foam from the back of the driver: http://apuresound.com/hdsennmod.html
I also used some damping mat (the mat you use to dampen you car, like dynamat) to stiffen up the plastic on the piece that covers you ears..not sure if that made such an improvement in the sound tho..
Blackbeerd
Active Member
Higher fidelity?
Not necessarily...
Yes, it's just a snapshot and not the whole picture. But 20 dB lower distortion in the first harmonic and 40 dB lower in the second harmonic is no small difference, even at a single 500 Hz tone.
Really, having auditioned the 1840 and owning the 600, I would say they're headphones more alike than different.
That was a minor point for me. So far, the major point has been ignored. And that point is, what do you get with a 600 or 650, which have been out for 8 and 12 years? The sound isn't likely the same as the originals. It might not even be the same as what you read in the reviews. I've had a lot of Sennheisers. The sample-to-sample variation is usually small in any given year of production, but spread out the samples a few years and the differences are very noticeable.
My Shure 1440 that I did the brightness mod with is only $400 USD retail, and I'd take it over a 600 or 650 for sure. For comfort if not sound.
One extra note about those graphs. Who did the tests? Tyll used to own Headroom, yes? Does he provide the tests now? I ask that because Tyll has been openly hostile toward the Shure 940, calling it "poor" which is an absurd comment. So I don't always assume what I see is the correct picture. With hugely different distortion numbers like that, I have to say "Let's get Shure's input on that before we make any conclusions."
nrap
Active Member
So you're saying that Tyll would fudge his measurements?
With what motivation?
Because he disliked the 940?
Tyll certainly isn't the only person to dislike the 940. They seem to be one of those cans that a lot of people really like and really dislike.
Both pairs of 650's i've heard sounded the same. Yes they made 2 different driver versions. One is old, like pre 2008 or so, and the other is new. One is silver the other is black. Clearly visible through the grills.
With what motivation?
Because he disliked the 940?
Tyll certainly isn't the only person to dislike the 940. They seem to be one of those cans that a lot of people really like and really dislike.
Both pairs of 650's i've heard sounded the same. Yes they made 2 different driver versions. One is old, like pre 2008 or so, and the other is new. One is silver the other is black. Clearly visible through the grills.
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Blackbeerd
Active Member
See, I see no hard evidence whatsoever for audible changes in the Sennheisers. All that's there is worthless anecdotal evidence. I've heard new and old HD 600s, and found no difference. You came to the opposite conclusion.
So the reality is that we don't know either way.
Since our actual sound preferences are subjective, I don't see how "it's older and therefore shouldn't be as good objectively" is relevant to your argument, especially when the available evidence doesn't even support the claimed objective superiority.
It's not too hard to do the homework if you're interested, although they don't start giving out names:
http://www.headphone.com/learning-center/how-we-measure.php
Knowing Headroom, you probably can get more information if you e-mail them. Tyll is pretty open about his own testing, and may also provide some insight into their methods. I do know that more information is available at Head-Fi regarding their tests as well. Off the top of my head, I do remember that the results are averaged over several tests to minimize placement error.
The HD 600 test is probably old enough that Tyll may have done it. Obviously not the SRH-1840. Given their consistency in results over time, I don't see any reason to suspect that their testing methodology has changed. Not that it can't have changed, only that the database and all the results shown are the same.
That's a lot of typing just to say "we don't know either way".
As far as whether anyone would fudge their numbers or anything else is concerned, my answer is: It depends.
Edit: I didn't say that Tyll disliked the 940. What I said was that he made an absurd comment, so I know it wasn't genuine.
As far as whether anyone would fudge their numbers or anything else is concerned, my answer is: It depends.
Edit: I didn't say that Tyll disliked the 940. What I said was that he made an absurd comment, so I know it wasn't genuine.
One additional thought for you: Propaganda doesn't mean false information. It literally means that which is propagated, ostensibly to influence people, and because of that latter intent should be held suspect. I'm amazed here at the suspension of critical judgement in regard to these tests, or any other tests.
As far as preferences and hearing go, when Tyll or Mike at Headfonia or several other experts I know state what they hear factually, I virtually always agree because I hear the same things. But when opinions are stated that contain no facts, I disregard them because, ummm, because they contain no facts.
As far as preferences and hearing go, when Tyll or Mike at Headfonia or several other experts I know state what they hear factually, I virtually always agree because I hear the same things. But when opinions are stated that contain no facts, I disregard them because, ummm, because they contain no facts.
Looking at Tyll's project on burn-in I see less than 1 db of change on average, but what I have is several times that. So I don't think it's burn-in, not entirely anyway. The best candidate is sample variation IMO, followed by earpad changes. So I will see in a few weeks. If you follow headphones closely, you'll note that several manufacturers are claiming they match drivers to very close tolerances now - 1/20 of one db for the Grado PS500, which is hard to believe. But what they don't say is that they match from headphone to headphone. Senn does spec tightly on the HD800, but not the 600/650. For anyone to claim the 600/650 are so close sample to sample even after 8 to 12 years of production - so close they don't hear a significant difference - that I have serious doubts about.
HiFiGuy528
Super Member
I'm selling my HD-650. I don't see much use for me. The HD-600 fits me more.
nrap
Active Member
which senns?
also my buddy and I both had a pair of Shure srh 840. we both agree'd that the pair I had sounded a bit different and noticably better. So i'd say shure's headphones back when the 840 was their top end can, weren't consistant either.
How is an opinion supposed to be factual? Tyll's opinion could be different than mine. neither one is more factual.
I don't get the propaganda part either. I need to know the motivation for him to propagate false information before I could buy into that theory. And what is he propagating?
To me measurements don't mean a lot. they give me an idea of the sound signature and tightness. and a lot of both of those is dependant on damping.
both the 600 and 650 are superior to the srh 940 as far as listening enjoyment in my opinion. But thats just like, my opinion man.
There you went and disregarded what I said about false information. I said that propaganda is "that which is propagated", which does not automatically make it false.
Fact and opinion: If they say the 940 is bright, that is a factoid, whether true or false, it conveys information that can be evaluated. If they say the 940 sounds "poor", that is not a factoid of any kind. It conveys nothing that can be evaluated - it's merely an attack.
Read Tyll's latest on measuring at his site. It's a pretty good read and has a lot of useful information. I remember agreeing with nearly all of it.
Technically it is, but if you're not selling anything then nobody should take it with suspicion - it's just a bit of information that BTW could be a useful tip for someone to investigate.
Sometimes people will bash products on Amazon, and it's obvious in some cases they are mfr's trolls. I know about those things from personal experience. So I would say, just look at the context and who you're talking to.
Actually you may have misquoted me for a second time. I don't have evidence that current 650's are inconsistent sample-to-sample. But I have read enough to suspect that they may sound substantially different from the early samples 8 years ago. If you read the mfr's warranty it says "right to change specs without notice" or words to that effect. That means they have a right to make improvements or anything else they wish. If Senn felt that the market today is demanding more bass, they could boost the bass and make a lot of people happy. But that would not be high fidelity. Not that very many people would care. I think a lot of the value of a site like Innerfidelity, being a part of Stereophile, is that they remember what high fidelity is, and by publishing measurements, they inform people so the people can make better choices of the gear they buy, or even if they're not buying, they can follow the production trends to see where they want to go in the future when they commit a lot of money to gear.
But if anyone is curious about what really is high fidelity, and whether the headphones they own are at least trying to be, read Innerfidelity's full comments on the Stax SR-009. Same goes for other sites like Headfonia. I used to own a Stax, so I can appreciate what that means.
