Should I send these in to Bryston? Warranty / Specs problem

[heavymod]

I have some confusion about how to proceed, and could use some advice. I have 5 Bryston PowerPac mono amplifiers. I picked them up with the intention of possibly bi-wiring my speakers. But eventually I decided to sell 3 to pay for the 2 I would keep. I've wanted a pair of Brystons for years, having read they are a good match for my KEF 105.4s.

I had a buyer that was insistent that they must be in great shape, as they apparently have a very transparent horn system and needed the low noise floor ( 106db / .007 THD at 120W, 1Khz ). I have access to a distortion meter, and the amps were testing around 95db and .02% THD. Now, I understand the numbers 1) Might not be accurate and 2) are respectable enough - certainly better than my ears could detect. But they aren't the specs that were provided.

I contacted Bryston regarding the warranty - they amps are ( barely ) within the 20 year warranty, which was one of the selling points. I was told that the warranty would transfer, to go ahead and sell the amps, and have the new owner contact them with any issues. Fair enough. Bryston's amazing warranty and support, right?

The buyer changed their mind, and I wanted to follow up to ensure that I was able to give the next prospective buyer a clear understanding of the amps. I also want to know if these aren't performing to spec, can I get them serviced under warranty.

This triggers a very frustrating conversation with Bryston. First I'm told that from what I'm describing, the amps are functioning as intended.

"No way to know the level of calibration in your test set up but I would say those units are working exactly as they should."

And when I press a bit - saying that .007 really isn't the same as .02 - I get a lot of push back.

"no one could tell the difference between .02% and .007% when listening"

"You are setting me up for 0.016% distortion on a pair of twenty year old PP120's that you want to sell to someone else. The reason for the bench fee and shipping is to discourage you from sending me two perfectly working units. I will not be held to a printed spec for either of those units"

At this point I'm a bit frustrated. What is the point of a warranty, if NOT to guarantee that the product will perform as advertised, for the duration of the warranty. This part in particular "I will not be held to a printed spec for either of those units"

It's not my fault they let marketing put some BS specs out there. And it's not my fault they used a 20 year warranty to sell units, and now have to actually honor that warranty. I feel bad for the person I'm having this conversation with - but I'm not the bad guy. Go complain to corporate that you've been put in an impossible position.

It seems that one of these two things should be happening.

1) Bryston admits that their original specs were false - and they probably couldn't get my amps up to spec if they wanted to, and explain how they are going to make good on the warranty ( which is a contract )

2) Bryston tests the amps, and if they are out of spec they fix them under warranty. If they are in spec, I totally understand billing me for shipping / bench time / whatever. Although I resent that he's deliberately adding barriers to prevent me from sending them in.

They've told me to send them the amps and if something is "grossly" out of spec they will fix under warranty, but it seems really clear to me that it is a waste of money ( about $300 for original packaging/shipping/bench testing ) just for them to tell me what I already know - that the amp sounds good, but isn't to spec.

I'm pretty sure I'm gonna get bashed here. So I'm gonna put a few things out there:

-I understand that expecting an amp to stay in spec for 20 years is ridiculous
-I understand that specs aren't what make an amp sound good
-I understand that my testing set up is possibly flawed
-I most certainly trust their expertise working on these amps, and understand that what makes them sound great isn't the .007% THD or whatever

So yeah - do what?

 

[Blue Shadow]

You need to use calibrated test equipment to be able to talk test results with the manufacturer. Get your unit calibrated and retest or don't talk about those numbers with a company that probably uses calibrated test equipment.

Send em in they will come back like new. That is what Bryston does. Maybe under some other name but they have your serial numbers. I wouldn't dirty the water before getting the refreshed by Bryston.

 

[heavymod]

You need to use calibrated test equipment to be able to talk test results with the manufacturer. Get your unit calibrated and retest or don't talk about those numbers with a company that probably uses calibrated test equipment.

The unit was professionally calibrated 18 months ago and while it's due for a yearly re-calibration, I feel that is good enough to have a general discussion with the manufacturer. I do think that is besides the point though, which is that Bryston says .02% THD is working perfectly, even though they advertise .007%. Same with a 10db difference in the noise floor. Maybe this is normal - but it seems weird to me.

 

[Blue Shadow]

Send em in. Get em right.

Have you read what Bryston does when they receive stuff?

 

[heavymod]

I'm pretty sure they are going to put em on the bench, say "yep - .02% THD" and then charge me $95 and return shipping.

"...The reason for the bench fee and shipping is to discourage you from sending me two perfectly working units. I will not be held to a printed spec for either of those units"

 

[mgosdin]

OK, here is what I would do. Ask for the Tech's Supervisor. Relay to the Supervisor exactly what the Tech told you including the " I will not be held to a printed spec " bit.

If Bryston is really up to their reputation the Supervisor will have a nice little talk with the Tech and you will get your Amps brought back into full published specs.

Mark Gosdin

 

[FootFungus]

What kind of load resistor are you using? That can sometimes make a big difference, especially at higher frequencies.

 

[heavymod]

OK, here is what I would do. Ask for the Tech's Supervisor.
Mark Gosdin

Thanks - I'm pretty confident the person I'm speaking with is a responsible party, and high enough up the chain to be making this decision. If I decide to make a big deal about it, I'll want to make sure the amps are 100% testing out of spec.

 

[whoaru99]

It depends what conditions are set forth for performance in their warranty. If push comes to shove their only real obligation is what is in the written policy.

 

[petes'picks]

I am going to side with Bryston on this one. No one is going to be able to hear .02%. Their warranty is a not for unlimited tune ups and spec checks with free return shipping. They would have to charge an extra $2K or so on each item they sell for that to be feasible.

 

[heavymod]

It depends what conditions are set forth for performance in their warranty. If push comes to shove their only real obligation is what is in the written policy.

That is an excellent point, and was part of my original question. I think here is the relevant part

"Bryston will remedy the problem by repair or replacement, as we deem necessary, to restore the product to full performance." I find it weird that "full performance" would mean "not to advertised spec". Throughout the conversation it seemed clear they were trying to avoid agreeing to the published numbers, but rather to a more subjective standard. Which I appreciate - I'd rather have it sound good than just meet certain specs. But as you point out, it is what is in the written policy - which is a contract between an owner and Bryston. So if you advertise and sell a product based on a certain feature ( specs ) then it seems to me this is going to be the standard by which "full performance" is going to be judged.

What kind of load resistor are you using? That can sometimes make a big difference, especially at higher frequencies.

I don't want to get too deep into my testing set up, but it's a 250W 8 Ohm dummy load. Low inductive I believe.

I am going to side with Bryston on this one. No one is going to be able to hear .02%. Their warranty is a not for unlimited tune ups and spec checks with free return shipping. They would have to charge an extra $2K or so on each item they sell for that to be feasible.

Your comments remind me of the Best Buy warranty, where the check out guy sells you the warranty by telling you "Look, you could walk out that door, and drop this TV, and we'd replace it". So you buy the warranty. Then you come back a week later with the TV you dropped and they are like "C'mon that's ridiculous, how would we make money if we had to replace every TV someone dropped!" How do you put a 20 year warranty on parts that don't last 20 years? You count on people not using it. That isn't a reflection on Bryston - that is just straight up marketing. Same logic behind mail in rebates.

 

[petes'picks]

This would be like bringing a 2.5 year old car with 25,000 miles back to the dealer and complaining it only does 0-60 in 6.2 secs instead of the rated 6.0secs or it only gets 23mpg instead of the rated 25mpg. Its working, enjoy them or sell them.

 

[whoaru99]

That is an excellent point, and was part of my original question. I think here is the relevant part

"Bryston will remedy the problem by repair or replacement, as we deem necessary, to restore the product to full performance." I find it weird that "full performance" would mean "not to advertised spec". Throughout the conversation it seemed clear they were trying to avoid agreeing to the published numbers, but rather to a more subjective standard. Which I appreciate - I'd rather have it sound good than just meet certain specs. But as you point out, it is what is in the written policy - which is a contract between an owner and Bryston. So if you advertise and sell a product based on a certain feature ( specs ) then it seems to me this is going to be the standard by which "full performance" is going to be judged.



I don't want to get too deep into my testing set up, but it's a 250W 8 Ohm dummy load. Low inductive I believe.

They guarantee the amp will perform the generally expected function of a Bryston amplifier, not explicitly that it will perform on day 7300 exactly as it does on day 1.

My suggestion is to get out of guaranteeing numbers or whatever it is you are trying to do.

If you are concerned for subsequent purchaser then send it back to Bryston for a factory checkout/tuneup. Whatever they send to you is for sale, "just checked out by Bryston with clean bill of health". That's it.

 

[goodolpg]

Only Judge Judith Scheindlin can decide this.
Although she doesn't suffer fools too well I say go for it!
Looking forward to seeing the show.

I wonder if it will go like this...
You're complaining about something that no one can hear?
And numbers so small as to be inconsequential?
Judgement for the defendant.
Next.

 

[Blue Shadow]

Does a warranty worked over unit come back with a performance verification sheet or just a invoice at no charge?

 

[heavymod]

This would be like bringing a 2.5 year old car with 25,000 miles back to the dealer and complaining it only does 0-60 in 6.2 secs instead of the rated 6.0secs or it only gets 23mpg instead of the rated 25mpg. Its working, enjoy them or sell them.

Well, I'm doing both - enjoying some and selling the others! And the two I have hooked up right now sound pretty sweet. Regarding the warranty, If I bought a car because it was supposed to get 25 MPG, and it wasn't, and it was under warranty, I would definitely expect the dealer to get it working properly to get 25 MPGs. Especially when the warranty was a major selling point of the vehicle in the first place.

They guarantee the amp will perform the generally expected function of a Bryston amplifier, not explicitly that it will perform on day 7300 exactly as it does on day 1.
Whatever they send to you is for sale, "just checked out by Bryston with clean bill of health". That's it.

Unfortunately, the resale value doesn't justify me shipping them up and back and having them checked out. It only makes sense if 1) The amps are truly out of spec and 2) Bryston will fix them under warranty. That is why I wanted to pin Bryston down on what qualifies under the warranty. It seems that original specs aren't used, and that it has to be "grossly" out of spec to qualify. So I get why, from a financial POV they are doing that, but I don't personally agree that is what the warranty covers the way it is written.

Only Judge Judith Scheindlin can decide this.
Although she doesn't suffer fools too well I say go for it!
Looking forward to seeing the show.

I wonder if it will go like this...
You're complaining about something that no one can hear?
And numbers so small as to be inconsequential?
Judgement for the defendant.
Next.

I'd disagree that the numbers are inconsequential. They are a measure of the full performance of the amplifier, as stated by Bryston. It's an objective measurement of the quality of the amp ( whether or not it's a good measurement ). This is the difference between saying "Best Pizza in the city!" and "Our PIzza contains less than .007 grams of Tree Nuts per serving - We guarantee it!". If your PIzza actually has .014 grams of Tree Nut - that is twice the amount you advertised. That seems pretty open/shut to me. In addition - you are saying that 10x the amount of distortion is inconsequential - in an industry where people pay $10,000 for cables.

Bryston talks about the extra headroom between the NPB, ST and SST series:

"There is quite a bit of sonic difference between the older NPB, ST, and the current SST amplifiers. The main design evolution has to do with a change in output devices and a larger, more efficient heat sink. The design change on the ST and more so with the SST allows greater gain in the output stage which greatly reduces the noise floor on the input side."

How much does Bryston consider "greatly"? There is a 10db difference between the noise floor on the ST and SST models ( 106db and 116db ).

So to recap,

• Bryston considers 10db noise floor change a "Great" improvement
• Bryston warranty guarantees "Full Performance" for 20 years
• Bryston later says an amp with a noise floor 10db higher than advertised is not covered under warranty, and is working as intended

If a 10db noise floor change is a great improvement, wouldn't the converse be true, that a 10db louder noise floor would be a great deterioration? I mean - doesn't that rub anyone the wrong way?

 

[whoaru99]

You have the option to send in the amps if you think they are not performing properly. That is what Bryston's warranty policy says you have to do (yet you refuse to).

Bryston isn't going to commit to anything soley based on your measurements, which is what you are asking them to do (despite your own acknowledgement your measurements may be flawed). They would be foolish to do otherwise.

If you wish to wrestle with Bryston regarding the wording/interpretation of the warranty policy, suggest a lawyer rather than a forum. But, presently, you have not afforded them an opportunity to provide any possible remedy under warranty because you will not send in the amp(s).

In effect, you want Bryston to commit to what you think is their obligation under terms of warranty but without you committing to your obligation under the terms of warranty (which, again, is to send in the amp(s)).

 

[bowtie427ss]

I have no dog in this race. But, when the VP of the company publishes a video touting the 20 year warranty immediately following emphasis on each individual amplifier's(included) measured specs...

While not directly stated, i think it could be argued that there's an implication there.

 

[Mamrak1]

So as I understand it, you want to send this Bryston piece back to the factory and have them check on a first world problem. Also, if they send it back with no problems found you will balk at paying any fees for wasting their time. Is that about right?

 

[heavymod]

You have the option to send in the amps if you think they are not performing properly. That is what Bryston's warranty policy says you have to do (yet you refuse to).

I have not refused. I am weighing my options. I have contacted Bryston to better understand their warranty, and what they say the warranty covers.

Bryston isn't going to commit to anything soley based on your measurements, which is what you are asking them to do (despite your own acknowledgement your measurements may be flawed). They would be foolish to do otherwise.

I am asking them to commit in general to whether the warranty covers amplifiers that are out of spec, and to what degree. This seems prudent, and the common sense things to do. I think it would be foolish to send in a product without first understanding the parameters of the warranty.

Bryston has already commented that ( assuming my measurements are correct ) being 10db out of spec is not a valid reason to return the amp for repair under the warranty, nor is a .016% THD when the posted specs are .007% THD.

I am prepared to accept financial responsibility if I send in my amps and my measurements are not correct.

If you wish to wrestle with Bryston regarding the wording/interpretation of the warranty policy, suggest a lawyer rather than a forum. But, presently, you have not afforded them an opportunity to provide any possible remedy under warranty because you will not send in the amp(s).

I have not afforded Bryston any possible remedy at this point, and so ( as I understanding it ) there is no breech of contract. Based on their statements the warranty does not cover items being out of spec as I have described. If I wished to proceed with a lawsuit, I believe I would need to send in the amps, have them measure them, report that they are out of spec but not "grossly" out of spec, and return them to me. At that point I would have incurred damages. I think. I'm not a lawyer.

In effect, you want Bryston to commit to what you think is their obligation under terms of warranty but without you committing to your obligation under the terms of warranty (which, again, is to send in the amp(s)).

Correct, I want Bryston to commit to my understanding of their warranty. I disagree with their current interpretation, and brought it to this forum for discussion. I do NOT want them to commit to the state of my amplifier until they have tested it themselves.

edit: Do you think that Bryston should only discuss the warranty after I have fulfilled my obligation to send it in? Because that is pretty much how our conversation has ended - they just want me to send in the amps ( with the understanding that I will pay return shipping / bench fees if the amp is not grossly out of spec )

So as I understand it, you want to send this Bryston piece back to the factory and have them check on a first world problem. Also, if they send it back with no problems found you will balk at paying any fees for wasting their time. Is that about right?

The "First World Problem" part is partially correct - they sell a first world product. However, these amps are often used in production environments, so this is also about the utility of their product and not just my personal enjoyment.

I wanted to know if Bryston would fix my amps under warranty, the problem being ( I believe ) they are out of spec. Bryston has said that being out of spec is not a big deal, that if my measurements are correct these amps are working as intended.

If I sent in my Amps, and they tested them and said "Hey these amps are to our published spec ( 106db / .007% THD )" I completely agree that I should pay for shipping and their bench time. That is why I contacted them and wanted to confirm - I don't want to waste their time or my money.