hakaplan
Needs professional help
You keep saying that you've used many Shure models, but the only ones you've mentioned are the VST III and the M97xE. Other than the VST III, I'd be curious to know what older models you've compared the M97xE to.
Shure pecking order
- Thread starter BrandXRC
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I don't believe I used the word "many" (in fact, I said "not that I've owned a lot of Shure cartridges"), but I can see how that impression was given. The other Shure cartridges I've had include an M70BX (for a Stanton STR8-80 turntable), M44-7 (used on an old Dual changer, along with stylus for 78's), M44G, M91ED, and a couple of Radio Shack variants. All were pleasant, just not terribly engaging. I tend to buy cartridges at least once per year, and have tried various models from Pickering, Audio Technica, Grado, Empire, Goldring, Stanton, ADC, Linn, Sumiko, and Micro-Acoustics. I still just like a change every so often, but I keep returning to Stanton as my cartridge of choice.
For a while, I thought I was done with Shure, but the VST III was purchased just so I could buy something from a friend who worked at a hi-fi shop (and who was a big Shure proponent). And a couple years ago I bought the M97xE on a whim shortly after that friend died. I was expecting another pleasantly inoffensive listening experience, and was surprised at how musically engaging the sound was.
From comments in this thread, I see I'll need to keep my eyes out for one of the V15 models to try out as well.
hakaplan
Needs professional help
With the exception of the M91ED, the other Shures you mentioned aren't exceptional. Many people here, though, do prefer the M91ED to the M97xE, usually specifying a better high end as one of the reasons. I guess it comes down to personal preference. I would be interested in your opinion of a V15 III or better if you ever come across one.
Good afternoon all, as I've said before frequently, for what it's worth although initially (back in 2004) when I first purchased my first M97xE I would have agreed with all the dull/ boring comments re the M97xE. However I've come to regard it as a fine cartridge in the long term.
As I've mentioned many times before, it is a cartridge that responds to tweaking (resistive and capacitive loading optimisation), but in any case I believe it is a cartridge that 'tells the truth' as opposed to many present day and popular cartridges that are voiced in a possibly engaging way.
Recently I attended a symphonic concert in an excellent acoustic environment and once again I realized that 'real' live music sounds rather different to what we expect from many vinyl systems that are voiced either with more prominent treble / bass or whatever. Compared to what we hear from many high end vinyl playback sysyems, live music sounds 'dull and boring' in comparison.
To me the M97xE sounds accurate, a true reflection of what is actually in the grooves. If that's dull and / or boring to some folk well that's up to them to decide. For me the M97xE sounds engaging and accurate and that's what I like. Regards, Felix aka catman.
As I've mentioned many times before, it is a cartridge that responds to tweaking (resistive and capacitive loading optimisation), but in any case I believe it is a cartridge that 'tells the truth' as opposed to many present day and popular cartridges that are voiced in a possibly engaging way.
Recently I attended a symphonic concert in an excellent acoustic environment and once again I realized that 'real' live music sounds rather different to what we expect from many vinyl systems that are voiced either with more prominent treble / bass or whatever. Compared to what we hear from many high end vinyl playback sysyems, live music sounds 'dull and boring' in comparison.
To me the M97xE sounds accurate, a true reflection of what is actually in the grooves. If that's dull and / or boring to some folk well that's up to them to decide. For me the M97xE sounds engaging and accurate and that's what I like. Regards, Felix aka catman.
Russellc
Addicted Member
The M97xE will not hold a candle to any V15 I've had. Its just all they have. Trust me, it is lightyears behind the V15.:yes:
Russellc
It sure is and I enjoyed it. I'm breaking in the JICO 95HE right now and am looking forward to an A/B comparison.
You know, I trust you, too, and Jazzwolf who listed several models that "blow the M97xE out of the water." I just want to know what criteria people are basing their judgements on. Hakaplan said that many people find that other models have "a better high end" than the M97xE, and I accept that, too. My sample of the M97xE sounds quite pure and undistorted in the high frequencies, with well-controlled sibilants and no stress on loud transients. Like Catman, I find the frequency balance very natural-sounding. But I'm willing to concede that there are other qualitative factors I'm overlooking or that perhaps my ears and/or modest system aren't capable of resolving. And I will be looking for a V15 model to experience for myself, but it would be helpful to read more specific comparisons than "will not hold a candle to" or "lightyears behind."
jazzwolf
Super Member
I don't know how specific you want me to be but how about boring and lifeless? The M97XE has a way of making my classic rock and jazz records sound really lifeless and dull. I have several other cartridges such as a Pickering XSV-3000 (which is on a par with the Shure V15III) Audio Technica AT 120E and a Grado Black. I prefer the sound of any of those cartridges over the M97XE. It doesn't bother me when I listen to classical music with the exception of Wagner but as soon as I play any other music I have to change the cartridge. Like I said it is a GREAT tracker but then so is the M97HE because of the stabilizer brush and I find that a MUCH better sounding cartridge expecially with the Jico stylus. If you ever get a change to listen to the M97HE or especially the V15III I would then like to read your opinion on it. I believe Catman when he states that with tweaking the M97XE sounds good but I shouldn't have to go through all that with a cartridge that I pay good money for. I expect a cartridge to have a certain breaking in point and then open up but that isn't the case with that cartridge. For example on Fleetwood Mac's "Rumours" album the cymbals alway jump out when Mick Fleetwood hits them on every cartridge I have but with the M97XE it sounds like it is dull due to the rollover highs of the cartridge. It definitely isn't the turntable as I have several different turntables and the cartridge sounds the same on all of them.
G'day all, Jazzwolf makes some really good points that I agree with completely, however perhaps although any given cartridge shouldn't need to be tweaked or optimised too much to sound it's best we all do anyway, don't we!? I'll admit that the M97xE does not sound its best at 47 k and I do recall being rather irritated in the past at the obvious treble roll off at 'standard' 47 k loading especially with excessive cable capacitance which is very easy to do by the way, from personal experience!
However at 62 k resistive loading, not once have I thought that treble was ever lacking at all even with records lacking recorded treble and the 'dynamic stabiliser' makes that cartridge almost universally compatible with any tonearm! As an aside I wish that phono preamp manufacturers would start including more flexible input loading arrangements with say 100 k resistive an option down to 10 k with moving magnet cartridges anyway, with capacitance choice too. Many moving magnet cartridges benefit from loading optimisation, not just the M97xE! Inner groove distortion has never been an issue with any of my M97xE's on any of my turntables. Correct overhang adjustment (as with any cartridge) is important too.
My three turntables tonearms range between quite high mass, moderate and low mass (Dual ULM) and the M97xE (with the dynamic stabiliser in use), is superb in all of them! Sadly it would appear that Shure no longer place much of a priority on phono cartridges especially for 'high fidelity' applications and although some aspects of the M97xE's 'build' quality are a concern, stylus azimuth for example, I'd feel quite lost without my M97xE's! When I upgraded to an Ortofon 2M Red, I was initially quite impressed by it but after an extended listening period the overly 'euphonic' niceness of the 2M Red, started to wear thin and I went back to the M97xE. In the end, there may well be better cartridges than the M97xE but for me it's the one but hey...each to their own! Regards, Felix aka catman.
However at 62 k resistive loading, not once have I thought that treble was ever lacking at all even with records lacking recorded treble and the 'dynamic stabiliser' makes that cartridge almost universally compatible with any tonearm! As an aside I wish that phono preamp manufacturers would start including more flexible input loading arrangements with say 100 k resistive an option down to 10 k with moving magnet cartridges anyway, with capacitance choice too. Many moving magnet cartridges benefit from loading optimisation, not just the M97xE! Inner groove distortion has never been an issue with any of my M97xE's on any of my turntables. Correct overhang adjustment (as with any cartridge) is important too.
My three turntables tonearms range between quite high mass, moderate and low mass (Dual ULM) and the M97xE (with the dynamic stabiliser in use), is superb in all of them! Sadly it would appear that Shure no longer place much of a priority on phono cartridges especially for 'high fidelity' applications and although some aspects of the M97xE's 'build' quality are a concern, stylus azimuth for example, I'd feel quite lost without my M97xE's! When I upgraded to an Ortofon 2M Red, I was initially quite impressed by it but after an extended listening period the overly 'euphonic' niceness of the 2M Red, started to wear thin and I went back to the M97xE. In the end, there may well be better cartridges than the M97xE but for me it's the one but hey...each to their own! Regards, Felix aka catman.
grateful
Super Member
Catman is right on the money. Very accurate and uncolored sound is not popular with many audiophiles. To untrained ears bright treble and boomy bass is great sound. The boring and lifeless comments illustrate this bias toward gimmicked and not natural sound. I also think the M97xe is a superb cartridge. It has a very well damped high frequency resonance and is absolutely free of any stridency and high frequency distortion that plagues AudioTechnica, Grado and many other audiophile favorites.
Thank you for your thoughtful response. It sounds like a major problem for some is the quantity of treble response the M97xE generates. For myself, unless a cartridge is so bright it's painful (like the AT440ML) I try not to worry too much about how prominent certain sounds or instruments are; after all, I don't really know how loud they're supposed to be. The M97xE has sufficient extension that instruments sound natural, and it reproduces the overtones needed to easily distinguish one instrument from another (and no, I don't have equipment to let me optimize loading as per Catman's recommendation).
What makes music boring to me is when the musicians sound like they're incapable of playing in tune and in time with one another. Ivor Tiefenbrun once defined music as "a set of coherent, intelligible, predictable variations in pitch with respect to time." Audio equipment has merit when the composer's intent and the musicians' skill with respect to beat and melody are preserved (something Linn and Rega 'tables do so well). What I occasionally rediscover in this hobby, to my financial loss, is that when I allow myself to be seduced by "sounds" (i.e., bass, midrange, treble, soundstage width/depth, image localization, air, transparency, etc.) over musical merit, my long-term satisfaction and enjoyment of the system go way down.
The M97xE has done a better job communicating the rhythm and pace of music than other Shure cartridges in my limited experience. I suspect the aluminum mounting block helps here; those plastic bodies with open mounting lugs are hard to attach "Linn-tight" to the tonearm. Nonetheless, with all the encouragement and positive comments here about the V15 III, I do hope to find a body at a reasonable price and add a new Saunders stylus to it to see how it compares.
robcalm
Good Solid Kiwi Styles
"Shures I own and use: V15 III (X2), V15 IV, M95ED, M97HE and ED. I usually use the V15 III. I got them all for FREE and have only had to bear the cost of styli. The JICO stylus for the M95ED at $19 is a steal."
where can I get Jico styli for $20?? Someone above mentioned that for the m95ed
Thanks,
Rob