cafe latte
Addicted Member
A Stereohedron is just a Shibata with two extra cuts to get round copyright, it is basically a Shibata, and a micro ridge is better.
Chris
Shure V15 Type III CARTRIDGE re-issue by Jico ---> JV15 Type III
- Thread starter Sam08861
- Start date
Chris
N2552
Super Member
I agree for 2 channel stereo Microridge - line is more suited then Shibata. But for CD-4 discrete 4 channel stereo use Shibata (Stereohedron) is still better (if a CD-4 capable cart is used. Which this Shure is not.)
Shibatta also performs better - although Shibata tip is not required - for SQ / QS type Quadrapfonic vinyl playback.
cafe latte
Addicted Member
A micro ridge will work perfectly well with cd4
Chris
N2552
Super Member
You say so! The science tells another story. Shibata was developed for CD-4. And defeated / outclassed all other so called developed for CD-4 styli icluding Philips SST microline tips. Especially using (like) new CD-4 records. Lots of folks claim even that less then 30db channel separation capable carts and or less then 50.000 HZ capable carts, including with plain eliptical styli are equally great for CD-4 records on 4 channel playback. While the format, the science thus, proves that, that. is impossible! (Including my ears that share that conclusion). And that the Shibata limits sonic artifacts during CD-4 playback and delays CD-4 records physical and thus sonic decay (of the CD-4 'grooves'). But like the old adagium goes; if it sounds good...it is good (enough) for one's ears
Anyways I have played enough with CD-4 in my days till 17 months ago. And decided that 4 channel stereo it is not for me (anymore)! But it was definitely fun while it lasted. Later surround sound could never 'begeistern' me at all. But taste matters as llng we all have music fun, it must be iood!.
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cafe latte
Addicted Member
Science actually proves micro ridge is better.You say so! The science tells another story. Shibata was developed for CD-4. And defeated / outclassed all other so called developed for CD-4 styli icluding Philips SST microline tips. Especially using (like) new CD-4 records. Lots of folks claim even that less then 30db channel separation capable carts and or less then 50.000 HZ capable carts, including with plain eliptical styli are equally great for CD-4 records on 4 channel playback. While the format, the science thus, proves that, that. is impossible! (Including my ears that share that conclusion). And that the Shibata limits sonic artifacts during CD-4 playback and delays CD-4 records physical and thus sonic decay (of the CD-4 'grooves'). But like the old adagium goes; if it sounds good...it is good (enough) for one's ears
Anyways I have played enough with CD-4 in my days till 17 months ago. And decided that 4 channel stereo it is not for me (anymore)! But it was definitely fun while it lasted. Later surround sound could never 'begeistern' me at all. But taste matters as llng we all have music fun, it must be iood!.
What allowed a Shibata to read the carrier frequency across the record was a smaller minor radius allowing it to track it in thr inner grooves.
The Shibata has a 6 or 7um minor radius but the Micro has less than half that at 2.5 to 3um.
Orbray did a test between a Shibata and a micro ridge both in the outer grooves and in the inner grooves. The Micro Ridge was able to track highs almost the same in the outer and inner grooves but the Shibata was not.
Shibata was at the time the best at reading the very high carrier frequency but a modern micro ridge can track both highs and a carrier frequency better.
A micro ridges ability to track highs better than a Shibata especially in the inner grooves is well proven
Chris
Bourbon
Drinkin' and dreamin'
I will have to take your word for it, as I don't know the cut or design elements. But what I do know is that my Pickering XL-33U is one of the best sounding cartridges I've got. I did pick up a spare, but that was years ago. Pure unobtanium now.
cafe latte
Addicted Member
The Shibata was two crossing sword cuts on a conical. The patent back in the day stopped Stanton using it so to get round the patent they added a couple more cuts that did not change the minor radius it did however get round the patent. Basically the Stereohedron is Stanton's version of a Shibata.
Re QUAD a fine elliptical can read the carrier frequency ( it has the same minor radius as a Shibata) but often the groove is worn in the area an elliptical touches. A Shibata bridges this damage and can read the carrier frequency from deeper in the grooves.
Early Shibata did this with only 40um major radius. Now we have 70 plus um Shibata but the minor radius is still quite a large 6um.
Micro ridge minor radius is 2-3 um allowing it to track extreme highs even in the inner grooves and its huge 75um major radius reads very deep in the groove.
Reading quad a small minor radius and large major radius wins even if on new vinyl a 0.2x0.7 will manage it just fine.
Chris
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Azimuth
Well-Known Member
This provides much detail plus a way to order one to test in Europe:
Pay attention to the suspension. Many folks seem to choose a retip of the oem vs new.
cafe latte
Addicted Member
A good retipper wont retip a cartridge with a bad suspension and with MM suspension can be easily addressed.
Chris
I was referring to new modern aftermarket production stanton suspensions being less than satisfactory.
N2552
Super Member
But Shibata is still the best suited tip for CD 4
. That is just science. Now; is a microline better then anything else aside Shibata on CD-4? Yes definitely! It is. But microline is however also better then Shibata for dedicated 2 channel 'grooves'. And Shibata is on paper and def. audible better then any non microline tip on dedicated 2 channel vinyl. That is just science. So I agree to disagree.But for my JVC 4MD-20X cart there is no microline available. Thus I did buy a Shibata for 2 channel use for this cart (but maybe a more affordable high quality nude elliptical 'diamond' tip stylus would have made more sense). O well. But If there was a - in any case thus less expensive then Shibata - Microline available; I would def. have bought a Microline for this CD-4 capable JVC cart; which I will only use for 2 channel records anyways!
Or sell it in the future to a CD-4 SQ QS enthusiast maybe
. Cuz 60.000 HZ is absolute overkill for 2 channel.But there are however cons against Shibata for dedicated 2 channel vinyl use. And that is aside price point extra wear! Elliptical diamond or microline are easier on ze grooves. Less wear. Can be something to take also in account for stylus choice. Like a conical tip on any type of vinyl; is just crazy bad for your 'grooves' healthy life span. Aside way less sonic capabilities as we all know. In short. These are the reasons for my stylus choices. That is all.
So would I buy Microline styli. Yes absolutely if it is available for a specific carts and if not elliptical diamond only thus neither Shibata! (Cuz again; I don't have CD-4 or SQ QS quad gear and media anymore! And never will in the future! I've been through that rabbit hole enough so to speak! Just not for me!)
My 2 cents. And I know you all still disagree. No problem, all will be fine anyways.
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cafe latte
Addicted Member
You are mistaken, it is not science, the science behind it is to read the carrier signal effectively especially with damaged grooves from elliptical you need a long majot radius and to read the carrier signal in the inner grooves you need a small minor radius, the Shibata had both and at the time it beat everything in these respects but not today..But Shibata is still the best suited tip for CD 4
But for my JVC 4MD-20X cart there is no microline available. Thus I did buy a Shibata for 2 channel use for this cart (but maybe a more affordable high quality nude elliptical 'diamond' tip stylus would have made more sense). O well. But If there was a - in any case thus less expensive then Shibata - Microline available; I would def. have bought a Microline for this CD-4 capable JVC cart; which I will only use for 2 channel records anyways!
Or sell it in the future to a CD-4 SQ QS enthusiast maybe
But there are however cons against Shibata for dedicated 2 channel vinyl use. And that is aside price point extra wear! Elliptical diamond or microline are easier on ze grooves. Less wear. Can be something to take also in account for stylus choice. Like a conical tip on any type of vinyl; is just crazy bad for your 'grooves' healthy life span. Aside way less sonic capabilities as we all know. In short. These are the reasons for my stylus choices. That is all.
So would I buy Microline styli. Yes absolutely if it is available for a specific carts and if not elliptical diamond only thus neither Shibata! (Cuz again; I don't have CD-4 or SQ QS quad gear and media anymore! And never will in the future! I've been through that rabbit hole enough so to speak! Just not for me!)
My 2 cents. And I know you all still disagree. No problem, all will be fine anyways.
The micro ridge has a smaller minor radius so it can better read even higher frequncies and it has an even longer major radius than the original Shibats so for CD-4 it wins on both counts.
Yes a Shibats was invented for CD-4 but it does not mean not other stylus cant read cd-4 better. Micro ridge can and the reason why is very simple and scientifficaly proven.
Cross ply tyes back in the day were used for racing , not anymore as things have moved on, stylus have also.
Chris
cafe latte
Addicted Member
Yes they were terrible
Bourbon
Drinkin' and dreamin'
I hope the suspension is still good. I bought both of them new and have got less that 100 hours on one of them. The other is still in the box. But with that being said, they are still old cartridges...
flavio81
Turntable technician
Not correct.
Yes
Shibata: patented 1973 by JVC
Micro Ridge: patented 1985 by Namiki
The explanation regarding why the Shibata needle tip was developed was exposed by Norio Shibata of JVC here:
Microline has an even larger area of contact and an even smaller radius of contact. Therefore, all the benefits of the Shibata needle for CD4 playback are also satisfied (and in a greater degree) by the Microline needle.
Indeed
cafe latte
Addicted Member
For intents and purposes thry are all the same. Shibata have been made with minor radius from 6 to 7um and major radius from 40 to 75um.
Chris