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Slow platterspeed on Dual 1009 ??

mrGrosvenor

mrGrosvenor

vintage connoisseur...
Hi,

I just got this turntable in a very beautiful wood plinth...


The problem is that it runs too slow on 33 rpm/ (maybe other speeds too)
Even if I adjust the pitch to maximum "+" its still too slow...I have tried to clean the innerside of the platter where the idlerwheel makes contact with the platter, but didnt help...

What is most likely to cause the slow speed? is it the idlerwheel that need replacement? if so where can I buy a replacement ? I really want to get this othervise lovely TT to work... :tears:
 
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Check/clean/replace the resistors and pots on the pitch/speed control circuit. A resistor doesn't have to be too far out of spec for the fine adjuster not to change things enough. See if there is a coarse speed adjustment somewhere on the table. Also, check the lubrication points on the spindle and motor. If anything has been rubbing on the idler in such a way as to cause it undue wear it may be out of spec (too small). The final possibility is that the motor is dirty/worn out inside. If anyone has any other ideas feel free to chime in or correct me.
 
Dyna&Sansui said:
Check/clean/replace the resistors and pots on the pitch/speed control circuit. A resistor doesn't have to be too far out of spec for the fine adjuster not to change things enough. See if there is a coarse speed adjustment somewhere on the table. Also, check the lubrication points on the spindle and motor. If anything has been rubbing on the idler in such a way as to cause it undue wear it may be out of spec (too small). The final possibility is that the motor is dirty/worn out inside. If anyone has any other ideas feel free to chime in or correct me.
Click to expand...


Thanks for suggestion... this Dual is OLD, from the 1960... its the first time Im looking into something this old :) as far as I can se the motor has a constant speed and the pitch and all the different speeds 33, 45, 78 and 16 rpm are controlled and adjusted by which position the idlerwheel has to the platter...so it all looks to be mechanical and no electrical pitch/speed control circuit at all... I have located the mechanism and if I press it down (beond what the maximum "+" manage to do) with my finger (see pic) the platter runs faster...

dallul5.jpg
 
All else failing, I'd say shim the adjuster (maybe with circlips) so that the table runs the right speed with the pitch control set in the middle. If you really feel like it, replace the idler wheel.
 
Forgot the obvious!!! Make sure the table is set for the correct mains AC frequency in your location (50/60hz). This will make it not run the right speed.
 
mrGrosvenor, from where did you get the TT, Europe, or North America? As mentioned above by Dyna&Sansui, the line frequency may be wrong. If you got it from North America, the motor shaft will be sized for 60Hz, not 50Hz.
Tom
 
OvenMaster said:
mrGrosvenor, from where did you get the TT, Europe, or North America? As mentioned above by Dyna&Sansui, the line frequency may be wrong. If you got it from North America, the motor shaft will be sized for 60Hz, not 50Hz.
Tom
Click to expand...

Its from Germany... I could only see a voltage selector 110/150 and 220 which it is set to...

Seems like Im not able to fix this... I tried lots of ideas, nothing seemed to work...it got a little better but not good enough. Seems like its very sensitive to the position of the idler wheel, the whole speedselector was kinda unstable like it was falling apart there was also other issues, auto return didnt work and sometimes it refused to start at all...tried to clean away old grease and lubricate...nothing really got better...its sad though since its such a solid and stable deck but honestly I bought this turntable mostly because it came in a wonderful looking wood plinth... already before I got it in my hands I had plans on replaceing the 1009 table with a 1019 or something newer... Im gonna use the base and try to fit a 1019 in it...if I can find one that is reliable and working.
 
Aside from hard idler, motor wired to switch for 60 Hz, wrong [60Hz pulley], polish the pulley and platter, leaving no residue. Oil the motor with clean car engine oil. Same with platter bearing.
And...see that the motor mount is not permitting the motor to hang lower than designed [dried-out rubber], and if good, then loosen the pulley set-screw [on side of pulley], and raise the pulley a millimeter. This re-positions the idler on a fatter portion of the pulley, which is tapered.

Seth
Forever Analog
 
Where is the idler riding on the pulley when the pitch control is at the middle of the range? It should be right at the center of whatever speed step you have it set on. I know there is an adjustment for this on a 1019 and I assume there is one on the 1009 also. It should be a screw type that raises and lowers the whole idler mounting carrier.

If this is fairly close and the speed is still slow, it can only be a problem with the motor speed (assuming the idler isn't slipping) since the size of the idler itself will not make a difference.

Doug
 
Dual 1009

Anything is worth a try. I think I would part out with a 1009. It's just not worth the time, and effort. Good luck with it though. -Mark-
 
I have made some progress with this, however I was unable to rise the pulley like NoTransostor suggested cause the screw refused to open, no matter what I tried... but I came up with some other ideas and now the platterspeed is okay, not sure for how long though :D I have tested many times with a strobomat and the dots stands almost still...

There was also some problems with the automatic features...so I decided to disable them and remove as much as possible...so now the TT is fully manual. I did this on another turntable once and it improved the soundquality a bit... not sure if I will get some sonic benefits here... but its an interesting tweak and if nothing else I might learn someting from it...

Where exactly should I place the oil when oiling the motor? can i drip it on the shaft and let it find its way down on its own ?? or ?
 
HI,
The motor cannot be lubed without takeing it apart. Even if it could, you shouldn't. All the other problems indicate that the machine badly needs a through cleaning and greasing.

Take the motor apart, clean the bearing and shaft with alcohol, and grease with a grease designed for turntables. It's available from MCM Electronics.

Dual used excellent motors and I have never seen one self-destruct. Cleaning and grease should get the job done. Too bad you ripped this thing apart. You gained no performance and lost a lot of convenience.

Sparky
 
The motor takes only clean car engine oil. That stuff from MCM Electronics is at best for the now-unused cam gear. I would not use alcohol to clean the motor bushings, They are scintered bronze, which makes them porous. You do not want them to soak up anything more than the oil.

Seth
Forever Analog
 
HI No,
I agree that light weight oil will work well. It's been too long since I have done the job. Forget the grease! Also, the bearing caps have felt pads to hold an oil supply. These need to be saturated with oil to the point where the oil is overflowing then let it drain.

If the motor bearings have coagulated lubricant, which they usually have if the bearings are slowing the speed, how do you get them clean? I have used alcohol to do this on hundreds of motor bearings. I don't soak them. I use alcohol on a Q tip, wet but not saturated, and rub the gooo off. You should let the alcohol evaporate before oiling. This can be speeded up by applying heat from a soldering iron.

The steel shaft is not an issue. Use alcohol or any other good solvent. Sometimes you have to scrape them to remove the coagulated lubricant. Do this carefully so as to not damage the surface.

Sorry about the oil/grease mistake.

Sparky
 
Thanks for all advices...

I did open up the motor and oiled with car engine oil... motor was completely dry inside not a sign of any lubrication or grease... now it runs so quiet... it turned out well :thmbsp:

Im going to solder some interconnect/RCA cables directly onto the wires that leads from the arm but do I need a separate ground wire? should I connect that one to the chassis of the turntable?
 
You may not need the ground wire in every case, but you probably do on that table. Try it with and without, and which ever works best is the way to go. Yes, connect it to the chassis and take care to make sure that the motor is properly isolated so as not to make the chassis live (fries you, your cart, and your amp!!).
 
Dyna&Sansui said:
You may not need the ground wire in every case, but you probably do on that table. Try it with and without, and which ever works best is the way to go. Yes, connect it to the chassis and take care to make sure that the motor is properly isolated so as not to make the chassis live (fries you, your cart, and your amp!!).
Click to expand...

I do have respect for electric components, especially of this vintage, I have all my vintage gears connected to a switched outlet so I can cut the power easily if needed...

:scratch2:

But how do I check that the motor is properly isolated other than inspect the electric outlet wires ? the motor is not grounded to the outlet...just two thin cables... which to me looks to be original...?
 
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