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Smaller sub sounds better?

I don’t think there is one answer for all subs. It probably comes down to individual brands and models. I’ve been very happy small sealed subs for music, but I’d expect a larger sun in the same model line to be better nearly all of the time.

I had the 12” Klipsch sub briefly brand new from Best Buy. I think it was $499 and I was very unimpressed with it and returned it. Could it be that the older 10” Klipsch was better built? I have no idea if that is the case, but I did not like the Klipsch 12 and thought it was outrageously priced given the performance.

I have a Dayton 8” and a Dayton 12” (both ported) on 2 separate “music only” systems paired with small speakers. The 8” is only ok, the 12” is shockingly good for music given the price (and the fact that it violates my usual “sealed for music only” rule).
 
Used to have a 18” active sub. Was garbage. Even my twin 8” bose acoustimass outperformed it.
 
Turns out it was position. Turning sub sideways so port didn't face the wall helped a lot. Smallish space with the 12's cabinet quite a bit larger than the 10's. I think though I'm going to save my pennies and at some point get a SVS SB-1000. I like the idea of a sealed versus a ported sub.

Mike

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Turns out it was position. Turning sub sideways so port didn't face the wall helped a lot. Smallish space with the 12's cabinet quite a bit larger than the 10's. I think though I'm going to save my pennies and at some point get a SVS SB-1000. I like the idea of a sealed versus a ported sub.

Mike

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Make sure the phase switch is set correctly on both subs. My guess is that phase is set wrong on the 12 and was set correctly on the 10. The fact that turning it sideways made it sound better also suggest that the phase is set wrong. To set it, play a 50 or so hz test signal from YouTube or Spotify, then choose the phase setting that is loudest (use a free sound level meter app to measure volume with the test signal).

When the setting is wrong, the sub and mains are losing their bass output because frequencies in the overlap region are cancelling each other out. You will need to readjust sub volume and crossover once you have phase correct, but be sure to set phase first. I think it's pretty likely the phase setting was the culprit making the 12 sound worse.
 
Make sure the phase switch is set correctly on both subs. My guess is that phase is set wrong on the 12 and was set correctly on the 10. The fact that turning it sideways made it sound better also suggest that the phase is set wrong. To set it, play a 50 or so hz test signal from YouTube or Spotify, then choose the phase setting that is loudest (use a free sound level meter app to measure volume with the test signal).

When the setting is wrong, the sub and mains are losing their bass output because frequencies in the overlap region are cancelling each other out. You will need to readjust sub volume and crossover once you have phase correct, but be sure to set phase first. I think it's pretty likely the phase setting was the culprit making the 12 sound worse.
I only run the one, not both. The port on the 10 didn't like being too close to the wall either.

Mike
 
I only run the one, not both. The port on the 10 didn't like being too close to the wall either.

Mike

I understand that, but both of your subs (used independently) need to have the phase set so that the sub is in phase with your main speakers. When either of your subs is out phase with your main speakers, the sub driver and main speaker woofer are moving in opposite directions, so the overlap frequencies (usually around 40 to 80 hertz) cancel each other out creating a hole in the bass. You can compensate for that hole a bit with the sub level and crossover controls, but that creates other issues and the sub (and main speaker’s woofer) work far worse.

It’s easy to overlook, but extremely important to ensure the sub is set to be in phase. Fortunately, it’s the easiest to set since loudest is the correct setting.

I’m guessing the 10” happened to be in phase (50/50 chance if it’s a 0/180 toggle) and the 12” happened to be out of phase. Rotating the 12 may have helped put it more in phase with the mains (though I’m not certain pf that).

What is the phase set to on the 10 and the 12?
 
I understand that, but both of your subs (used independently) need to have the phase set so that the sub is in phase with your main speakers. When your sub is out phase with your main speakers, the sub driver and main woofer are moving in opposite directions, so the overlap frequencies (usually around 40 to 80 hertz) cancel each other out creating a hole in the bass. You can compensate for that hole a bit with the sub level and crossover controls, but that creates other issues and the sub (and main speaker’s woofer) work far worse.

It’s easy to overlook, but extremely important to ensure the sub is set to be in phase. Fortunately, it’s the easiest to set since loudest is the correct setting.

I’m guessing the 10” happened to be in phase (50/50 chance if it’s a 0/180 toggle) and the 12” happened to be out of phase. Rotating the 12 may have helped put it more in phase with the mains (though I’m not certain pf that).

What is the phase set to on the 10 and the 12?
"0" is best on both of them.

Mike
 
How does the sound of the 12 and 10 compare now that the port has space? Does the 12 sound better than the 10, or do they sound roughly the same.
I've got it dialed in now and am happy with the 12. As you know too much gain is "boomy". Spent the day on it and I'm thinking good to go. Years back when I was into car audio I preferred a sealed sub to ported. Sealed always sounded "tighter" to me. For now though I'm happy.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Mike
 
As one poster said, that series of Klipsch sub you have (KSW-12/KSW-10) isn't what I'd call an "audiophile" sub. More of a home theater sub designed for "boom and rumble" during movies. So don't base size/sound comparisons on that particular example.

If you want a good musical sub spend the money on a good sealed sub. Stay far away from anything with a passive radiator. Some ported subs are ok, depending upon the build and tuning (cheap ones usually sound cheap, however). Sealed should be the primary choice and with enough watts to make the bass effortless.
 
As one poster said, that series of Klipsch sub you have (KSW-12/KSW-10) isn't what I'd call an "audiophile" sub. More of a home theater sub designed for "boom and rumble" during movies. So don't base size/sound comparisons on that particular example.

If you want a good musical sub spend the money on a good sealed sub. Stay far away from anything with a passive radiator. Some ported subs are ok, depending upon the build and tuning (cheap ones usually sound cheap, however). Sealed should be the primary choice and with enough watts to make the bass effortless.

Some of the best bass I've encountered, was with passive radiators. Three in particular:

- JBL 2245 in a 26" cube, with an 18" passive radiator and a 500w Dayton sub amp. Bass that could move windows, but so clean, that it was almost impossible to tell where it was coming from.

- two TC Sounds 10" in a cabinet with three TC Sounds 10" passive radiators, also powered by a Dayton 500w amp (picture here: https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?media/the-10c2-project-active-bass-concentric-speaker.4638/ ) This was actually louder and cleaner than the 2245, and went lower too.

- my current "room compensation" subs- EPI 8" with a hand-built 15" passive radiator in each, mounted behind the couch I am sitting on right now.

Like everything- they just have to be tuned properly.

Regards,
Gordon.
 
I've been curious about this DIY 8" (Infinity NLA Autosound Sub) with a 12" Passive Radiator, seems reasonable
though I doubt that it will do much SPL given the low efficiency of the woofer:

Looks like the GRS 8SE sub will drop in but, of course, check through sims first.
 
I choose Energy's S10.3 sub for my home theater set up, I use this 10" model for stereo music too sometimes, so I wanted a sub that was good for both. Energy offered an 8" and 12" model as well.

In a small - medium size room, 8" should work well. One consideration for me is physical size and weight. I want one that's easy to move. In medium - large rooms the 10" looks like the right balance of sonics and physical size. With a 200w (800w peak) amp and 21 hz @ -3 db's this 10" sub provides clean powerful bass for both music and movies.
 
Some of the best bass I've encountered, was with passive radiators. Three in particular:

- JBL 2245 in a 26" cube, with an 18" passive radiator and a 500w Dayton sub amp. Bass that could move windows, but so clean, that it was almost impossible to tell where it was coming from.

- two TC Sounds 10" in a cabinet with three TC Sounds 10" passive radiators, also powered by a Dayton 500w amp (picture here: https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?media/the-10c2-project-active-bass-concentric-speaker.4638/ ) This was actually louder and cleaner than the 2245, and went lower too.

- my current "room compensation" subs- EPI 8" with a hand-built 15" passive radiator in each, mounted behind the couch I am sitting on right now.

Like everything- they just have to be tuned properly.

Regards,
Gordon.
Passive radiator subs do put out a ton of bass. But I've yet to hear one that puts out what I'd consider "musical" bass. HT and 2-channel music are usually two different subwoofer disciplines.

I don't need a bass guitar to rattle the floors and that's what most passive radiator subs do. They also don't really "punch" like a sealed sub does.
 
Passive radiator subs do put out a ton of bass. But I've yet to hear one that puts out what I'd consider "musical" bass. HT and 2-channel music are usually two different subwoofer disciplines.

I don't need a bass guitar to rattle the floors and that's what most passive radiator subs do. They also don't really "punch" like a sealed sub does.

I've had the opposite experience.

Sealed subs- in order to get sufficient low-end extension- require very heavy cone mass on the driver itself. Especially, if the box volume mus also not be large.

Also, a sealed enclosure, will inherently require MUCH more cone excursion from the driver, than any sort of reflex enclosure.

This cone mass leads to several problems, in producing upper bass properly- the additional cone mass leads to weird suspension anomalies (rocking motion and such), breakup modes that occur at much lower frequencies than normal (limiting useful bandwidth), and a very low efficiency (which increases needed power, and therefore increases power compression effects from the heat generated in the coil).

Also- the extra excursion needed, stresses the suspension. Spiders don't deal with huge excursion well, in general. Neither do surrounds. The larger the excursion, the more linearity (stiffness vs, excursion) issues raise their nasty heads. The surrounds needed to move this far, also have issues with breakup and "doubling" modes themselves.

The effect, is that the sealed sub is frequently usable over a very small bandwidth, compared to the lighter cone mass of a reflex driver. They don't go as low- unless, as I mentioned, the enclosure is very large, or there's lots of EQ involved (which gets right back into the power compression effect- more EQ, more power, more compression).

OTOH- due to the reinforcement of the bottom octave by a reflex enclosure (ported or PR), the cone mass can be much lower- even with a lower f3 than a similarly-size sealed enclosure. And the excursion can be lower, too, for the same output level (as the port or PR makes up the rest of the excursion at the lowest frequencies- where excursion is the greatest). This makes for a much easier job for the magnetic motor- leading to higher bandwidth on both the low and high ends of the response.

This greater bandwidth, makes reflex subs frequently "faster"- and therefore, more punchy, and realistic sounding than subs with lower bandwidth. Even if it's filtered by a lowpass- the fact that the response isn't doing weird phase and frequency response things in the upper part of its response, makes it easier to integrate.

So, if you're willing to have a very large sealed enclosure, with multiple drivers to take up the excursion (a la the dual 15" bass drivers in the VSA Ultra 11, or the large SVS or Hsu subs), then you can get good response sealed. BUT- if you insist on small size- which most people do- then a reflex enclosure makes the most sense. You give up less in terms of transient response and bandwidth, that way.

What's interesting- it's not a sub, but it is indicative of the behaviors mentioned here- that Von Schweikert Audio- long a proponent of sealed low bass enclosures in their flagship models (Ultra 11, Ultra 9), is NOW going with more vented enclosures (reflex), such as in the Ultra 7. And many people have found the bass on the Ultra 7, to be better...

Regards,
Gordon.
 
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