So why not an SL1200 instead of a Rega P3

[marc mc]

There's a bit of a SL1200 cult around here (maybe 'bit' is putting it too lightly), perhaps due to the fact that a lot of AK members are all about vintage gear.

I think if the 1200 was the same price as the P3 there would be far fewer on the AK. If any.

marc mc

 

[cactuscowboy]

I wouldn't mind discussing this point a bit more.

I'd like to upgrade my SL-1200, and have been attracted to the Jelco, but can't really afford it now. Is a tonearm re-wiring (and KAB damping) really the same level of improvement, or even close to it?

I own a KAB Technics SL-1200MK5 (Technics tonearm) with:

-Cardas tonearm rewire
-KAB tonearm dampener

I also own a Technics SP-15 with a JELCO tonearm.

I bought my Jelco tonearm before it was 'discovered' by the audiophile crowd and became the 'flavor of the month.' So I had no preconceived notions about it. Just that it was a reasonable price, looked to be of good build quality, and long enough that I could spin 16" transcription discs on my SP-15. In the time I've had it, I've played hundreds of records with it.


Based on my experience, there's not enough difference in performance of the two tonearms to be of any significance. I would advise you to save some money and buy the KAB upgrades for your existing Technics tonearm. The KAB upgrades make this tonearm a first class performer. Disregard any nonsense about the Technics tonearm being "a weak link." That it can be improved by those two modifications takes nothing away from the fact that its design and construction is of the highest quality.

As far as I can tell, the motivation for replacing the Technics tonearm with a Jelco/Rega/SME, etc... is:

1) An obsession to tweak & experiment.
2) A dogged determination to get rid of the "DJ" appearance of the turntable, in seeking approval of fellow audiophiles.

Either reason is fine if a guy wants to spend the money and time to do so.

If I were to replace the tonearm on my SL-1200, it would more likely be a noticeable improvement, such as installing a high-end air bearing linear-tracking tonearm. But I don't think that'll happen simply because of cost consideration and overall excellent performance of the existing (modified) tonearm.

Have fun whichever direction you take!

 

[Mr. Lin]

Frankly, I don't think that means jack-$***! I can't ever imagine a scenerio where Michael Fremer would lower himself to listen to the Technics deck. For crying out loud, the last couple of "budget" amps he reviewed he coupled with $40,000 speakers, etc. - "real world" isn't part of these guys lexicon.

All that being said - you make some great points. People need to decide for themselves what sounds best in their system and quit worrying about defending their choices. There are lots of great choices in this price range - what's "best" is up to you.

Since I subscribe to both magazines and read them all the time, I have to disagree. Maybe Michael Fremer wouldn't lower himself, but they have a lot of writers, and although they do review a lot of shockingly expensive components (there's a reason why it's called "The Absolute Sound," that's what they're looking for), they do plenty of reviews of equipment with 'real world' prices, all the way down to turntables at the price point we're discussing here, and lower. And when they do that, they compare them to each other, not to the newest $80,000 turntable with $10,000 cartridge. And again, the Technics, which is still available, is never mentioned.

 

[slate1]

And again, the Technics, which is still available, is never mentioned.

I'm curious as to why you think that is?

 

[JohnVF]

Since I subscribe to both magazines and read them all the time, I have to disagree. Maybe Michael Fremer wouldn't lower himself, but they have a lot of writers, and although they do review a lot of shockingly expensive components (there's a reason why it's called "The Absolute Sound," that's what they're looking for), they do plenty of reviews of equipment with 'real world' prices, all the way down to turntables at the price point we're discussing here, and lower. And when they do that, they compare them to each other, not to the newest $80,000 turntable with $10,000 cartridge. And again, the Technics, which is still available, is never mentioned.

They're also in it to sell magazines (some of them to me, I read both TAS and Stereophile every month), and the SL-1200 is 30 year old news. There are so many of them around, and they are so readily available, and have been written about so much so already, that I can't see what benefit there would be of them reviewing it.

 

[marantzfan]

I'm curious as to why you think that is?

It's sure odd isn't it. I mean, Art Dudley reviewed a goddamn PLAYSTATION in one edition....

I can also guarantee you they have received more then a few letters and emails asking to review the SL-1200 over the decades it has been in production.

Audio snobbery? Maybe... Who knows? Untill it actually gets reviewed its just conjecture..

 

[geode]

I use a Technics SL-1401 I bought new in 1978. It is rock solid and sounds great. I bought a AT 440Mla for it. I can't speak to the Rega debate, but I would love to give it an audition. Not just the Rega either, there are other new TT I would like to give a spin...Sota, Music Hall...etc...just no $$$ for it now. Truthfully, I don't need a new TT, but you know how it is with the "Bug." I doubt you would not like either of the TTs you are trying to choose between, though.

 

[just dave]

Everyone has their opinions and I think that its good to have opposing points of view the smart thing to do would be to listen to both, weigh there pros and cons and give me the one you don't want. :yes:

 

[thedelihaus]

Rega arm/technics arm pros and cons-


The Technics arm has a few good and bad things about it-

THE ACHILLES HEEL-

First- it has good tone arm wire- but not great. It suffers with mediocre (in audiophile standards) internal cabling, except for the M5G and Japanese MK6. The tone arm wire can be upgraded.

It interrupts the tone arm wire to RCA cable with a PCB. Too many inturruptions in the path of the tone arm wire. This PCB can be easily bypassed.

The RCA cables are good but far from great. $20 in Mogami cables and you got some nice cabling.

NOTE: Another- The arm tube has resonance issues within a certain frequency range- it has been tested. aKer WmAX has details on the test. Later Technics arms like the EPA-100 used a titanium nitrided arm, along with oil/spring/rubber fluid damping, and spring isolated pivot set screws, to combat this. And Jelco has used insulated sleeving and inner tube lining on arms they manufactured for Audioquest, Koetsu and perhaps Sumiko.

The Technics can be sleeved as well, with something like shrink tubing or plumbers tape, or perhaps filled with foam to dampen it.

THE NEUTRAL- the bayonet headshell. Cartridge direct to tone arm wire is best, but then you can't swap headshells. I am calling this one neutral.

THE POSITIVES-

Basic, good geometry to the arm.

Bearings/tolerances are excellent- better than the Regas by far.

VTA on the fly- one of the easiest to use.

Durable, sturdy lightweight arm.



THE REGA RB 250/300-

THE NEGATIVES -

No VTA- remedied by buying shims, adjustable baseplate, or aftermarket VTA adjuster.

Plastic end stub- remedied by buying aftermarket end stub of better quality.

Tone Arm Wire. Not up to the arm's potential. Remedied by replacing the tone arm wire.

NEUTRAL-

Fixed integral headshell. Better for sound, but no swapping headshells. Pick your choice.

Bearings. The bearings aren't bad, but they aren't at the level of the RB600, and surely not the Technics.

There's a potential casting issue. Origin Live rejects some arms due to casting inconsistancies in arm tube thickness (an uneven casting causing variable wall thickness). Despite this, I am unaware of any sonic or durability issues- though they may exist- so I'm calling it neutral.


POSITIVE-

The arm casting (contradictory to my neutral notes above) offers superior rigidity.

It also offers low resonance- tested and proven over the Technics tube, for sure.

Lastly, the simple and well thought out arm design is greatly affordable.

No SME V, nonetheless it dares to play in the same ballpark as an arm as nice as this and others, for pennies on the dollar.



TECHNICS-

Fully rewire the Technics (including RCAs), bypass the PCB, damp the arm tube and the arm is markedly improved.

REGA-

Rewire the arm and add an aftermarket VTA base, weight end stub and weight and you have an excellent performer.

 

[Bob_in_OKC]

When it comes to a simple comparison of the SL-1200 and the P3, Paul's reply is better than the previous 107 posts, combined.

 

[Big Mac]

I have had both decks....the Rega is long gone....I have had the chance to pick up another along the way...haven't yet....why?

I bought a 1210 with the upgraded wire.....it stays....sounds better than the Rega did and I have lots of cartridges to mount on lots of headshells and VTA on the fly to audio heaven.

 

[agypsy]

i'm having a new appreciation for my 1200's!
i bought my first one in 1989 and it's still rock solid. i only recently started researching the forums when i was thinking of upgrading my TT. meanwhile i decided to upgrade my phono stage to a tube box SEll and stylus to a goldring GX1022 just to see what it would sound like and already there is a dramatic difference.

i was originally going to go for a used vpi or something in the $2.5k range. but after hearing what a non-dj cart and entry level phono stage did for the 1200 and after some research, i've decided to do the KAB upgrades.

 

[Dr Tinear]

Since I subscribe to both magazines and read them all the time, I have to disagree. Maybe Michael Fremer wouldn't lower himself, but they have a lot of writers, and although they do review a lot of shockingly expensive components (there's a reason why it's called "The Absolute Sound," that's what they're looking for), they do plenty of reviews of equipment with 'real world' prices, all the way down to turntables at the price point we're discussing here, and lower. And when they do that, they compare them to each other, not to the newest $80,000 turntable with $10,000 cartridge. And again, the Technics, which is still available, is never mentioned. [Emphasis added]

That's absolutely true. I suspect that comparing a lower-priced Rega or Music Hall turntable to the SL-1200 would result in a review that would embarrass Roy Gandy or Roy Hall, so Gandy's friend Michael Fremer and Hall's friend Sam Tellig find it expedient to pretend that the SL-1200 doesn't exist.

I agree with another poster's comment that the higher-line Regas are stable, great-sounding turntables. I've only heard the Planar 2 and the P7, so I'm not sure which model between those two marks the breakpoint between mid-fi and high-end sound. All I can say is that the Planar 2's sound did not make me happy, whereas the P7 was outstanding.

 

[Bigerik]

Well, this thread is going absolutely nowhere. Like every other time this subject comes up.
I figure we are done, so I am closing it down.