He was on the quiet side, really knew his circuitry well. I can't place the project he was working on at the time. This was 36 years ago.
I think at the time he had the Pioneer RG-1 going.
Solid state amps that sound tube like
- Thread starter vintage4
- Start date
He was on the quiet side, really knew his circuitry well. I can't place the project he was working on at the time. This was 36 years ago.
I think at the time he had the Pioneer RG-1 going.
electroking
a- v- karma member
This 'sounds' like an interesting proposal for an experiment!
Regarding an earlier post, could someone explain to me what is the meaning
of 'soundstage expansion', and why this cannot be achieved with
a solid-state amplifier? I hate to say this, but such statements sound
to me more like astrology than honest art and science.
Stereo_type
Active Member
Don't "pass" on Pass
I'm kind of suprised that no one mentioned their Pass amp or amps for what could be the best of the best in tube-like SS sound. Mosfets done well can pretty much rule the tube-like sound quality roost.
electroking wrote:
As far as astrology goes, I'll leave that to others, but I guess you might want to seriously consider this: unless you've heard the tube-like or tube-type magic or essence with your own ears, you might not know what you're missing. I percieve the description of soundstage expansion as that sort of third dimension that is evident when some degree of "air" around the music is presented; a common trait with fine tube/tube-like systems. In other words, SS is known for sounding anywhere from the cold, analytical extreme or maybe even two-dimensional to warm or sweet. The best of tube/tube-like sound generally adds depth and an added dimension of sorts, possibly even more of a realism that can be surprising; at least that is mostly what I percieve as the difference...You will however, hopefully know it when you hear it.
I'd probably humbly encourage electroking to get out to an audio show or event, show or at least maybe some kind of local event or meet and see what there might be to experience, either totally tube wise, or at least tube-like wise. I'm kind of convinced in advance that you'll "get it" when you hear most any Pass amp with high-quality peripheral equipment, or if not, you might try checking in with some type of tube preamp and/or tube amp combo system.
Your mileage may vary, although you could work at this either "backward" or "forward", meaning that you might want to hear an all-tube system, hybrid combo, or possibly a class A Pass SS system in that, or reverse order, to achieve your personal reference for various grades of anytyhing from truly tube to tube-like SS sound.
Speaking of actual tubes in their native audio environment, one of several tube types that easily comes to mind is the 845; when it's delivering its magic from within a well designed and built amp, it's difficult to imagine much of anything else that can deliver all the true-tube goods any better.
I'm kind of suprised that no one mentioned their Pass amp or amps for what could be the best of the best in tube-like SS sound. Mosfets done well can pretty much rule the tube-like sound quality roost.
electroking wrote:
As far as astrology goes, I'll leave that to others, but I guess you might want to seriously consider this: unless you've heard the tube-like or tube-type magic or essence with your own ears, you might not know what you're missing. I percieve the description of soundstage expansion as that sort of third dimension that is evident when some degree of "air" around the music is presented; a common trait with fine tube/tube-like systems. In other words, SS is known for sounding anywhere from the cold, analytical extreme or maybe even two-dimensional to warm or sweet. The best of tube/tube-like sound generally adds depth and an added dimension of sorts, possibly even more of a realism that can be surprising; at least that is mostly what I percieve as the difference...You will however, hopefully know it when you hear it.
I'd probably humbly encourage electroking to get out to an audio show or event, show or at least maybe some kind of local event or meet and see what there might be to experience, either totally tube wise, or at least tube-like wise. I'm kind of convinced in advance that you'll "get it" when you hear most any Pass amp with high-quality peripheral equipment, or if not, you might try checking in with some type of tube preamp and/or tube amp combo system.
Your mileage may vary, although you could work at this either "backward" or "forward", meaning that you might want to hear an all-tube system, hybrid combo, or possibly a class A Pass SS system in that, or reverse order, to achieve your personal reference for various grades of anytyhing from truly tube to tube-like SS sound.
Speaking of actual tubes in their native audio environment, one of several tube types that easily comes to mind is the 845; when it's delivering its magic from within a well designed and built amp, it's difficult to imagine much of anything else that can deliver all the true-tube goods any better.
agreed
I too have experienced that. In fact I have a system rigged now in the "TV" room built out of odd pieces that produces a sound field that it has no right to produce. A Pioneer SX-535, Yamaha EQ-50, SAE 1800 parametric driving Bose 501 Vs located close together on each side of the big screen and a pair of Bose bookshelf "somethings" way out on each end at different heights and offset. Its a weird shaped room with a bedroom V shape wedge on the listening side. Daylight basement so there is tall cement walls and half height and low walls with windows on one side and an open hall leading off the other and enclosed duct work on the ceiling. Nothing in that room suggests good environment. The speaker placement seems all wrong.
Maybe its the 2 pianos in the room or all the stuffed furniture or the hardwood floor on cement or ????? But it has a sound I cannot believe it could make. AND not just a sweet spot but a huge wide effect. Its freaky.
I swapped the SX-535 for an SX-650 I had on there just to check. The 650 was doing it too. Sometimes you just trip over the magic.
I'm going to throw a Carver Sonic Hologram generator on it just to see what happens.
I too have experienced that. In fact I have a system rigged now in the "TV" room built out of odd pieces that produces a sound field that it has no right to produce. A Pioneer SX-535, Yamaha EQ-50, SAE 1800 parametric driving Bose 501 Vs located close together on each side of the big screen and a pair of Bose bookshelf "somethings" way out on each end at different heights and offset. Its a weird shaped room with a bedroom V shape wedge on the listening side. Daylight basement so there is tall cement walls and half height and low walls with windows on one side and an open hall leading off the other and enclosed duct work on the ceiling. Nothing in that room suggests good environment. The speaker placement seems all wrong.
Maybe its the 2 pianos in the room or all the stuffed furniture or the hardwood floor on cement or ????? But it has a sound I cannot believe it could make. AND not just a sweet spot but a huge wide effect. Its freaky.
I swapped the SX-535 for an SX-650 I had on there just to check. The 650 was doing it too. Sometimes you just trip over the magic.
I'm going to throw a Carver Sonic Hologram generator on it just to see what happens.
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dr*audio
Fish fingers and custard!
I have a Sansui AU-9900 and AU-11000. I would describe their sound as tube - like. I had an opportunity to compare the 9900 with some tube amps at a recent get together and I think the AU-9900 acquitted itself very well. Their sound is so rich and sweet, they make you want to keep turning up the volume to get more of it. Great soundstage, detail and depth, they have it all.
I had a room in my last apartment (actually it was the upstairs of a loft) who's shape always lead to great imaging from speakers that sounded much like you'd get with a tube amp. It was an A-frame room, with the speakers along the bottom of the "A" facing towards me. The reflections were such that it produced a holographic soundstage with almost anything, tube or solid state. Not the most accurate presentation, but a lot of fun.
In my playing around with different gear in my main system, the preamp choice has had more effect on the soundstaging properties of my system than whether or not it's tube or solid state.
whoaru99
Epic Member
I'd second this. I've seen it recommened more than once to add some "tube-like" characteristics to a SS amp. Doesn't take much as you say, 1 or 2 ohms, maybe a hair more or less.
While I have little direct experience with tube amps, one of the reasons I snagged an Audio Research 100.2 was the allegation of it having some tube-like characteristics. Because of lack of much tube experience I cannot comment on those specifics, but it is a fine-sounding, smooth yet detailed amplifier none-the-less.
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SoCal Sam
Lunatic Member
It took a lot of comparisons and more than a few tube amps to really discover soundstage expansion. There is a transcendental quality to tube soundstage that is difficult to describe but IMO easy to demonstrate on my home systems which are McIntosh MC-60's and Kenwood L-09M's each driving a set of NS-1000M's.
With tubes, it is easy to separate the sound field from the speakers and get the impression that the sound image is floating in air. Vocals are centered and float about one foot forward of the speaker plane. I can more easily suspend believe that I am listening to audio gear which leaves me with simply the sound to enjoy.
I almost bought a DNA .5 last month...when I listened to it, I was thinking "I bet this would sound great with a tube preamp". Good to know that it does! Or not so good, since I didn't buy it.
I have to agree totally. They have their own sound but tube like? Not to my ears.
Regards,
Jim
Ok
That sort of a room seems to make sence. I had a room upstairs in an old house where the roof angle cut one wall off. Looked like the sound reflectors on a stage so it made sense to put the speakers on that wall and it worked. The image was so good it seemed like headphones at the sweet spot. Tiny room though and a small sweet spot but truely incredible to listen to.
That sort of a room seems to make sence. I had a room upstairs in an old house where the roof angle cut one wall off. Looked like the sound reflectors on a stage so it made sense to put the speakers on that wall and it worked. The image was so good it seemed like headphones at the sweet spot. Tiny room though and a small sweet spot but truely incredible to listen to.
The most "tubelike" I have got out of a solid state piece, is the Marantz 2325. But ya, tubes are there own. Dr. Audio, have you done anything special to your AU-9900? Not the first time I've read you type about yours.
Gang-Twanger
Resident Wharfedaliophool
That runs REAL-hot, from what I understand. The Kenwood is great, but those are pretty-expensive amps. I paid $55 (after a $5 cash-back) for my 2000x and $40 for my 4000. And I have to say, my sound is anything but tubby-sounding. The bass is tight, the soundstage is seamless and hole-free, and the entire frequency spectrum is clear and very-well-defined. Extremely-musical sound. There is definitely a strong synergy between my receiver and my speakers, and that has something to do with it as well.
I'm mostly-talking about the lower-wattage Sansui models like the 2000x, as well as the 1000x and the 4000, and their integrated equivalent (There was a 7000, but I think it was only sold in europe and Asia). I stayed away from the higher-powered models (like the 9090db and other later amps, and basically any of the high-wattage Sansuis) because that's really a different sound when it starts trading off warmth for brute power (I've heard Sansui owners say things like "The lower-wattage models sound better at low to moderate volumes, but once I get up into louder territory, the power of the bigger models really-kicks in and takes over, and that's where I like the higher-wattage models better" - But in my small apartment, I rarely go past moderate volume, so the higher wattage does me no good) - Plus, my speakers don't need much power to sing anyway. I prefer that type of setup. Maybe I'll change my mind down the road and start saving for a G-Series (Wait, no I won't.....), but for now I'm right where I want to be.
It's funny, I was just watching a video (using my home system for sound) someone put up a video on YouTube of a 7000 receiver powering a pair of DQ-10's, and I said to myself, "Hey! I know that sound!" (The guy used a decent mic, so the sound was clear - It wasn't all-clacky and jittery like most YouTube videos).
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JohnVF, pick one up if you find it. They sound so good with a tube pre. But you have to audition certain ones. Conrad Johnson sounded bloated. Sonic Frontiers and the VTL sounded best with it.
What's kind of funny when I was looking, is that the SF and VTL weren't as tubey sounding.
The main reason I didn't buy it is that it sounded almost a dead-ringer for my Grodinsky Model 5 amp...which also sounds great with a tube pre. I decided that I was going to buy the new Krell or Luxman integrated instead, then didn't do that either...and now the DNA .5 has been sold. Oh well, there will be others (I have a glut of gear anyway, at least I keep reminding myself that).
I see you run Van L speakers...those most surely do not need tubes to image, if they're anything like the quartets I heard at his place.
Suzuki
jl1dca
I suspect the relay in the output circuit for protection is the birthplace of SS's sound character. If the relay is eliminated and short-circuited, there would be a remarkable sonic change closer to tuby sound, I suppose. The Relay is kind of a pinpoint contact, and that a large signal current flows through it.
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