Some Empire Turntable History

Help ID Empire arm?

I picked up this Weathers TT with AE arm.

Can anyone ID it? It has a cylinder that will receive a little metal tab on the arm at the end of the record. The cylinder has nothing in it. Is it supposed to be some kind of stop or lift?

Thanks for any info.

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Your Weird Empire arm

Well now this is something completely different!

That is an empire 980 tonearm, but the headshell is not from a 980, as it had a fixed headshell and used a removable clip for the cartridge This looks like a custom job or something from Empire I am not aware of.

To your question, that tab on the back of the arm is part of Empires Mag Lift design. It lifts the arm at the end of the record using a magnet inside the upright tube on the left.
Could you show us some closeup photos of that headshell and where it attaches to the tube?
Thanks,
Donald Bowman
 
Will do.

I saw the reference to the mag lift and after some adjusting it is working. It is a home made base (obviously.)

So I am now listening to Dire Straits, Communique. Was not sure to expect with such a light platter, small motor and idler wheel. I am nicely surprised at the sound.
 
Your Empire Tonearm

Hello,
after looking at this arm, it is an Empire 98 tonearm, that has been "upgraded" with a 980 Mag Lift. You arm has a band on the rear of the tube for the Mag Lift lug. Later arms had the lug installed in a hole in the tube..
You can occasionally find extra headshell on Ebay for this arm so you can switch cartridges.

Donald Bowman
 
Question on dust cover and minor gold corrosion

The turntable history presented here is almost unparalleled in the history of any audio component that has been written about, particularly concerning the length of time the author spent on ferreting out sometimes obscure bits of history. I recently bought a beautiful and well kept 598-1 Troubador. There is only a small amount of corrosion on the tonearm where it touches the arm rest. However the dust cover is a little difficult to set properly and some of the screws are loose, however it does do what it's supposed to do without falling down. However there is a very thin bead of glue on the inside of the dustcover where wood meets glass. The quality of this work is almost impossible to see and the glue is almost translucent. But this glue does not go all the way around the inside and some of the screws are loose on the area where the dustcover mounts to the plinth. I'm wondering if this is something that was done at the factory or was it done later by someone who wanted to keep the glass from loosening from the wood. Whoever did, whether factory or the previous original owner of the table did an excellent job. However, the glue seems to hold the unit too close between glass and wood and it is therefore slightly difficult to get the dustcover to expand enough to fit the mount. One side seems to have slightly more glue than the other. I'm just wondering if this is a factory job or one done to ensure that the glass does not separate from the wood creating a mess and probably breaking the glass., If it is not original I'm thinking of taking an Exacto knife and removing the glue. That way the dust cover would not be so "tight fitting" such that the it is impossible to place properly on the mounting area. Could anyone who has a dust cover for their table for a 598-1 and take a look to see if this glue is on their unit? If several people respond I might be able to make a proper decision on whether to remove it I've only had this unit for a few days but I can already see how well engineered and lathed the whole unit is. The tolerances used must have been a huge contributing factor in how well thee tables are regarded. and how they hold up.
If the glue is not original then I will need to remove it promptly by the Exacto knife method (or if anyone has any other thoughts on how to remove this glue if THE dustcover glue if it is not original to the system then let me know. Right now it is a little tight but I worry whether someone tried to tie up a lot of loose ends in the dustcover by adding glue, which does make it more stable but perhaps not original but perhaps slightly safer with children around, bu we don't have any children so I'm willing to get it back to normal if that glue was not put on at the factory. Since the glue is only on one side and not all the way around the dustcover system, I presume it is not original. But I really don't know.

Also, if anyone has any ideas on how to stop the tonearm from corroding further, I'm sure that everyone who is dealing with this problem would greatly appreciate it.
 
Empire Dustcover

Hello Lad,
we need a little info first.
you say this is a troubadour 598-1 are the panes in the dustcover real glass or plexiglass? if it is real glass, then this is not a factory job, as the 598 model were all to my knowledge, shipped with Plexiglas and wood dust covers.

Also, please post some photos of the lids problem points, and the "corrosion on the arm, as I maybe able to help with both problems.
I have installed real glass in my 598 covers, and have had great luck in polishing the tonearms on this model.

Donald Bowman
 
The turntable history presented here is almost unparalleled in the history of any audio component that has been written about, particularly concerning the length of time the author spent on ferreting out sometimes obscure bits of history. I recently bought a beautiful and well kept 598-1 Troubador. There is only a small amount of corrosion on the tonearm where it touches the arm rest. However the dust cover is a little difficult to set properly and some of the screws are loose, however it does do what it's supposed to do without falling down. However there is a very thin bead of glue on the inside of the dustcover where wood meets glass. The quality of this work is almost impossible to see and the glue is almost translucent. But this glue does not go all the way around the inside and some of the screws are loose on the area where the dustcover mounts to the plinth. I'm wondering if this is something that was done at the factory or was it done later by someone who wanted to keep the glass from loosening from the wood. Whoever did, whether factory or the previous original owner of the table did an excellent job. However, the glue seems to hold the unit too close between glass and wood and it is therefore slightly difficult to get the dustcover to expand enough to fit the mount. One side seems to have slightly more glue than the other. I'm just wondering if this is a factory job or one done to ensure that the glass does not separate from the wood creating a mess and probably breaking the glass., If it is not original I'm thinking of taking an Exacto knife and removing the glue. That way the dust cover would not be so "tight fitting" such that the it is impossible to place properly on the mounting area. Could anyone who has a dust cover for their table for a 598-1 and take a look to see if this glue is on their unit? If several people respond I might be able to make a proper decision on whether to remove it I've only had this unit for a few days but I can already see how well engineered and lathed the whole unit is. The tolerances used must have been a huge contributing factor in how well thee tables are regarded. and how they hold up.
If the glue is not original then I will need to remove it promptly by the Exacto knife method (or if anyone has any other thoughts on how to remove this glue if THE dustcover glue if it is not original to the system then let me know. Right now it is a little tight but I worry whether someone tried to tie up a lot of loose ends in the dustcover by adding glue, which does make it more stable but perhaps not original but perhaps slightly safer with children around, bu we don't have any children so I'm willing to get it back to normal if that glue was not put on at the factory. Since the glue is only on one side and not all the way around the dustcover system, I presume it is not original. But I really don't know.

Also, if anyone has any ideas on how to stop the tonearm from corroding further, I'm sure that everyone who is dealing with this problem would greatly appreciate it.

First...thank you very much!! I appreciate the kind words.

To your question though...this is a peculiar situation. The 598 series *usually* came with a -plastic- paned dust cover. The plastic inside the wood frame is clear, flexible, and lightweight.

But your saying it's actual glass, which is quite unusual for a first generation 598. The last run of 598III's sometimes had a glass dust cover, similar to what was standard on the 698, so I'm wondering if your cover was a custom job to replace a cracked plastic pane, a replacement from Empire during the 698 era so it is the one found on the 698, or done by the original owner just for cosmetic purposes. (The plastic does tend to give an aura of cheapness to it, at least I feel it does.)

My stock 598 dust cover shows no glue along the perimeter, though there is evidence of glue where it meets the wood and the wood strip in the front. I can see why someone would glue it as the plastic does have some wobble play on mine, adding to the "cheap" impression of it.

I don't know how trimming this glue would benefit or change the snugness of it's fit on the hinges though. That "snugness" is another reason I wonder if it was a replacement, repair, or custom job done by contractor or handyman and they got the measurements just slightly off. Plus you cant tell if the glue would still be pliable to slice off like you suggest. It could also "break off" leaving you with a jagged edge making it look worse than it does now and potentially weaken the bond. If the job is as good as you say, I'd leave it alone. Remember: spare parts for these beasts no longer exist!!

Unavoidable tolerance differences from parts made at widely spaced time intervals might also explain the not too great fit if it is a stock Empire cover made at a later date bought as a replacement.

Are you saying the hinges and screws on the hinge board are loose? That would be common from years of use, and I would re-read my warning about trying to tighten them and the best way to go about it.

Is the glass clear or tinted on your dust cover? Does it have the Empire logo on the top, front left side? This will go a ways to determining if it is a true Empire dust cover. Some pictures would help in this regard.

You can't stop the metal corrosion. Look on vintage car websites for discussions about "pot metal" and you'll learn how and why it is unavoidable. It's the nature of the beast, sadly.
 
You are correct that the dustcover is plexiglass and not glass. My mistake. I knew that it was plexiglass from the description given by the seller when I bought it. But since we've both left feedback for each other, that is the end of the item appearing directly on Audiogon. Doesn't say Empire on the dustcover but does say Empire on the back wood piece where the dustcover attaches to the rear of the table. Perhaps a better way to show the turntable would be to refer you to the cache on Google of the table as the seller and I have both exchanged feedback so the listing was taken down but here is the item in the Google cache. I'm sure it will be gone in a few days, or at least the pictures will. Incidentally, that's not something weird on the end of the turntable but is tape that the seller used to keep the tonearm from moving. I would have used a different way of doing that but I've already taken the tape residue off with a product designed to do just that.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...98+site:audiogon.com&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

I'll have to drag my trusty camera out to get some pictures but my motherboard on my main computer went out last week so I'll have to wait until at least next week to get you the pictures as my other computer with the latest Intel chips has my reader for photography inoperative since my digital camera uses chips from my digital. . Otherwise I'd have to take the chip down to the drug store and have a DVD disc made.

As to the glueon the plexiglass, one side has more than the other so a previous owner could have reglued the dust cover and fitted the dustcover more tightly than was done at the factory. But it could be exactly what you described but the excess glue looks odd which led me to question whether it had been reglued too tightly at some point in its history.

But yes, the hinges and screws are loose and the dustcover seems too tight to fit correctly fit over the squares on the outside top rear of the back wood on the table. But they will fit with some work, primarily by pulling the dustcover slightly so that it fits over the rear wood panel and over the squares on the exterior at the top of that raised back panel. But it won't raise and lower without the possibility of falling off. That and the slight corrosion on the tonearm are the only two faults I see rather than it needing a new belt and I'm not even sure of that yet. All in all though I feel that I got a great deal but we audiophiles are never satisfied are we. The nature of us beasts I guess. I do wonder if painting the arm from a few inches after the the bearing with clear enamel in a can (you don't want polyurethae in that bearing) might slow down the corrosion. I once knew a guy who painted all the metallic copper coated door knobs in his house every few years and they never had wear or corrosion. But the tonearm isn't handled that much and it is possible that a polyurethane product might make the problem worse, sealing in the corrossive elements in the arm and causing it to deteriorate faster.

Thanks so much for your willingness to help me sort all these questions out. Sometimes I can ask too many questions for my own good and be too much of a perfectionist for my own good. But again thanks for being willing to take your time out to help me in my quest for a good turntable, which may be used exclusively for my vast collection of 78 rpm records as I plan to put some of them up on Youtube and this table fits the bill without buying one of the much more expensive new Rek-O-Kut tables. But no matter what I do, this table is a keeper. For what I got for my money, it's vastly superior to anything else out there used that also plays 78 rpm records. Thanks for making me aware of this table.
 
There's no way to really fit the dustcover more tightly by gluing the glass. The wood frame won't let you bow it if everything is in good shape. Assuming it's the original plastic in the frame, even if the original owner took it apart and reglued it, while there is some play of the pane in the frame, it's not enough to cause the effect you're describing.

Exclusively for 78's? Oh my friend, you know not what you are missing if you do that! :music: Play some LP's on it when you have it running up to snuff. You may just get addicted to the unit. ;)

What's your main 'table?
 
New and updated first post!!!!!!

Just a note to let everyone know I just revised, expanded, and updated the first post in this thread.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread as well as others from Audio Asylum and The Vinyl Engine. All the new infromation gleaned from your contributions have been incorporated into the main post as much as possible.
 
I've got an older Dual and about 4, 5 or 6 Ariston RD11S tables. (I don't buy new anymore) Some of them need some serious turning up but I've been collecting them over the years. I also have an odd display model made by Pioneer in the 70s to display the innards of one of their turntables at dealers. I'm sure it was a very limited run and guy I bought it from had modified it to actually play records. It's a direct drive table with a lot of electronics in it. I forget the model number. And yes, you're right, I could use the Dual to play 78s. I've had other models over the years, a Dual CS5000 which I got rid of because I couldn't get rid of Acopustic feedback and a Kenwood KD500 with Black Widow tonearm which I sold to a so called friend. He was going to pay me in installments but he was having a rough time financially so I let him go until he got on his feet and then he swore he paid me already. So I lost both the table, arm and a guy who I thought was my friend. Glad to let hm go. I felt much better when his wife gave him a 50th birthday party and two people came. I wasn't one of the two who came to the party. So apparently I wasn't the only one he done something like that to.

I also have a prototype arm that was made for McIntosh years ago when they were planning to put out a turntable. The prototype arm was made by Bob Graham and only a limited number of these were made when McIntosh put their turntable on hold. So there are probably less than a dozen of those in existence, probably far less.
See: http://www.roger-russell.com/phono.htm

But I guess that was where Bob Graham got his street credits and perhaps some money for MIT tuition. I haven't mounted that arm but bought it because it's got to have some value just for its historical value alone, although I paid perhaps too much for it. But it looks very similar to his 1.5 arm.

Also have a Lenco light platter belt model from the 70s and a real junk Rek-Ko_ Kut

But I do appreciate the comments from the fellow who called me a "young man". I sure wish it were so but then relatively speaking someone in their early fifties is still young. But I'm most happy with my Linkwitz Orion speakers. They do call attention to new components but that's the joy of owning such a speaker because\e every time you change a component. I do have the Linkwitz Orion speakers and they are quite good but I've got to get the latest upgrades done. I also owned one of George Merrill's table's, the kit models in the mid 70's. I should have kept that one too. It was a fine table.

At last but not least, I do have an uncle who committed suicide. He had in his system a set of Empire end table speakers and an Empire turntable. I was about thirty when he bought the table and there wan't much buzz about Graham who is quite a legend in his tonearm advancements.

Oh, one other thing. When I first went off to college I bought a table that was made by Stanton but which had magnetic bearings. But he drank heavily and had some emotional problems so he killed himself. It was sad and tragic for me because he was only eight years older than I am and I considered him to be like a brother who I never had. His mother worked in the Federal Probation system and knew all the judges and got him duty on a ship sailing around harbors in Southern Europe. And I think he always felt guilty that he didn't have to serve in the war like many of his buddies who never came back. Plus his drinking didn't help at all.

I'm sure I owned other tables over the years but I've forgotten those. A case of "remember the good times and forget the bad". Judy Collins a sang something like that once. But his death hit me pretty hard then and I moved away to Seattle in 1994 because I couldn't deal with that. But that was about 20 years ago and I've largely put that behind me. Sorry to go on so long but since you asked...
But I have had an off again and on again love affair with turntables so I've had quite a few over the years. Now I just buy old ones and try to get them inexpensively. Sometimes not. Solid state amplifiers I've never had much a taste for since I discoverd tubes. Although solid state sounds fine in my Linwitz Orions.
 
Your dudt cover and Tonearm corrosion

Hello Lads,
I have been an owner of 15 Empires to date I have picked up a number of observations and tips.
As to the glue problems on your dust cover, from your descriptions, it appears that it came apart at one time and was re glued by a previous owner.

I have owned two 598's that arrived with the cover completely disassembled. One came from Arizona and the other from Canada, both had been in storage for a number of years. The obvious weather conditions in these two extremes just dried out the glue to the point that it delaminated.

I had another situation where I took one 598 cover apart to replace the badly scratched plexi with real glass.

IF interested, I can write up my procedure to take apart and reglue a cover, as I have another cover here I am going to replace the plexi in.

As to the tonearm, yes there is a lot of pot metal, but there are in some arms a number of brass castings, and a lot of brass plating to the pot metal.
with anodizing over this, and what appears to be some kind of a clear coat applied to the exterior of the arms.

I have found in at least four arms, it is this clear coat that has taken the brunt of scratching and pitting, but left the finish underneath in very good condition.
See photo of headshells and a finished polished tonearm.
The difference is hand polishing with a product called MAAS, which has a soft abrasive in the polish that cuts through the clear coat.
It is the only thing I have found so far that can get through it safely, and I have tried most chemicals including Acetone to no avail

Here is also a photo of the rear of my arm polished

As to the hinge, yes do not tighten the screw. But, I have found on most dust covers that on disassemble of the hinge, there is a flat spring washer between the hinge and the wood back support. Over the years, this washer has lost all of it tension and no longer adds resistance to the hinge joint. I replaced this spring washer, and reassembled to find a remarkable improvement in the covers tension.

Great care must be used to remove that screw, you will more than likely need to soak the joint with penetrating oil and check to see if there is a lock pin keeping the screw captured, and again, do not over tighten on assembly.

Again this is my observations of owning and restoring 15 Empires of all models. I am truly fond of these tables, and am now finishing the build of two custom Empires with SME 3009 Tonearms.
I will share these when the are done.

Donald Bowman
 

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Great help

Thanks for the help. I started cleaning the table and the arm and I noticed that there appeared to be what looked like cigarette smoke ( or air pollution) that had accumulated on the tonearm and the plinth. I was amazed at how much came off the plinth alone. So I used some 91% rubbing alcohol and then a product made for taking off price stickers, stamps and the like from various things. If I was brave I would take the table apart and soak all the metal parts in ammonia which is an amazing cleaner if you let the parts soak long enough. I learned this trick from an audio dealer and I have found it quite helpful on a number of occasions, both as an audiophile and around the house. So I cleaned the table off including the arm and it looked much, much better. But I do have a question for you. When you used a polyurethane coating on the arm did you use a spray type or a very thin paint on type. I worry about the polyurethane getting in the bearings and creating friction or causing them to hang up since I understand now that there are tiny bearing in there. So spray painting that could cause problems but I haven't tried it so I don't know. I haven't taken the dustcover parts off but will do so when I have the time and can make sure I'm not going to have to follow up with something like turpentine to free up the bearings. But my arm looks much better. A good bit of what I thought was corrosion must have been a build up of grime. I do appreciate your hlep and thoughts on this matter and I do believe I'm going to make this table I my main table as soon as I'm sure I have the right cartridge for my system on it. Thanks very much for your help. I think I might do a review of it when I'm sure it's "the one". My loudspeakers will make that clear when I turn them on. But right now they have to have a major mod in the crossover as determined by the engineer who designed them and that's going to take a little while.
 
Poly on arm?

Hello Lad,

I am not sure what you mean by me applying polyurethane. or how you got that from my post.

What I was talking about in my last post, is that I removed the old poly or what ever that coating is, on the arm in the photos, and did not apply a new coat. it isn't necessary, as the shine you see in my photos is just the polished metal, no poly. Doesn't need it don't do it.
The MAAS cleaner and polish leaves a light barrier to prevent future tarnish.
In fact the arm you see here was polished over a year ago, and only needs a light wipe down from time to time.

I believe, that most of the yellow you are seeing is the old "poly" like coating applied by the factory.

One thing, be very careful in cleaning the center of your platter. The strobe lines and the gold color is painted on, so use only a light detergent to clean it.
I have on 698 that the center is just polished metal, as the owner before me tried to remove the "yellow" color with acetone, and just wiped out the paint.

Donald Bowman
 
Mr. Monster. :yes: Yes! Share with us all your dustcover tips and restorations. I too have a cover on my 598 that falls apart on a regular basis. A gentle squeeze on the side wood usually puts it back together for a week or so. But it always seperates at the most inopertune times. :no:
 
The empire dustcover hinge

Hello again Lads,
until I get to the glass installation of a dust cover, here is some quick information on that infamous hinge.

The hinge is three parts, hinge itself is just a rectangle of steel held to the plinth's backboard by a screw that threads to an insert in the backboard, and a steel spring washer. please note, the threaded insert is roll pinned to the wood to prevent it from moving along with the hinge, This pin also goes through the screw, to keep it from backing out during use.
To remove the screw, you will have to punch out the pin.
If you try to unscrew it without removing the pin, you will either snap off the screw, or so mangle the screw head to make it unusable
Of course you will have to repair the hole in your wood, and install a new pin. I did this, but used a solid pin so I could easily remove it in the future
Empire used roll pins in many places on the 598/698 I think it was to keep the user out of self repair.

It is my belief that, the failure point is the spring washer. It is a 3/4" diameter washer that is curved from the center on two opposing sides.
The pressure of the spring acting against the hinge and the steel insert in the board is what holds the dustcover in place. After 40 plus years, the spring washer just looses it's set, and can no long hold the weight of the cover.

I was lucky to find 4 of these sized washers in a neighborhood hardware store, and replaced the springs on two tables, a 598 and a 698 both have glass tops and fronts.

This worked quite well, and held the cover in place at a 90degree angle, plus a bit more in a forward position.

I found a few sources for them on the net, and I will order some in different thicknesses to find a match for the original

If you try this yourself, use care in removing the screw, as it looks like they used a thread locker along with the roll pin. if iit does not move under normal strength, stop and soak it with penetrating oil and wait a day or so.
Clean up the surfaces with a light abrasive and reassemble in the order it came apart.
DO NOT OVER TIGHTEN THE SCREW on assembly.

By the way, the screw in this photo came from a Empire tale with a broken hinge I got from an estate sale it is much shorter, due to the fact the the rest of the screw is still inside the inset.
The previous owner tried to remove it with out removing the pin, and snapped the head of the scre off at the pin pont.

Hope this helps.

Donald Bowman
 

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Empire Tonear Polish

Hello Lads,
I need to mention something important on the polishing of the Tonearms and other bright parts of this and other audio equipment.
Under no circumstances, use Brasso, or other "brass polishing products.
Brasso and others are for use on marine castings, and heavy brass plated objects. It is harsh enough to actually strip the finish off off your tonearm.
The only thing I have found that fills the bill for use on electronics and fine surfaces like nickel, silver and brass plate is MAAS. It is a powerful cleaner and polish, but not caustic to the metal. It also leaves an invisible protective coating behind, that keeps the tarnish away, and you can use an occasional wipe to keep things clean and bright

Donald Bowman
 
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