Some Empire Turntable History

[Edriz]

As MrMonster has suggested, the speed issue sounds like you received a wrong sized belt. Not that the speed adjustment has that great a range, but it should produce some difference, so I would make sure the belt is the proper size.

MrMonster also touches on something I've been meaning to write about.

Those felt washers in the suspension system of the 498/598/698. They provide that "piston" action that Empire describes, but I found that removing them improves the sound by more than an order of magnitude.

They provide a nice amount of damping, but since when my Uncle first got his 698 I noticed that the turntable didn't have the complete freedom other suspended tables had from vibration transmitted sounds like thumping on the plinth or acoustic feedback.

So in a fit of experimentation two years ago I removed the felts from my 598III and after readjusting it and all, I found not only is the turntable now completely impervious to any sort of influence from being tapped on, acoustic feedback etc, but a whole low layer of grunge and "haze" is no longer there. Plus, and I admit I cannot explain this, subjectively the bass seems to go deeper and with more authority than it did before the felt removal.

The downside is, naturally, that you need to have a really solid support for the thing now. That's not a concern for me, as my listening room floor is a concrete slab, but for others, doing this mod would make wall mounting almost mandatory. Plus you lose the ability to use the cueing facility as touching the cue lever causes the whole platter/arm to swing and jump up and down. (I rarely use it anyway. I've always been a "fingerlift" man.)

But if you can do it, I would at least try it. It does a LOT to help an already good sounding turntable sound even better.

The first belt I received was way too big but the seller sent me the right one the second time. Or as far as I can tell, its the correct one. Its slightly smaller then the one that came with the turntable. I'm guessing the original may have been worn.

 

[MrMonster]

Tonearm Bouncing?

Hello,
If your tonearm is bouncing from normal foot traffic, you may not have the platter adjusted properly or more likely the tonearm is not setup correctly.

Go to vinylengine.com and download the 598 manual.
There are instructions to properly setup the platter height and the tonearm and cartridge.

Like I said I can pretty much jump on the floor, and I have two of my 598's on a low table.

Donald Bowman

 

[golana]

It's time I build a decent base for the 498. Can anyone point me to the dimensions. Mostly the angle. It appears to be opposite the plinth angle.

I seem to have found that the original base, i.e. small, light and or petite. Used for belt drive. Versus, a larger block of wood, for an idler drive. Is the way to go.
I do like the looks of the standard base, but would like to to what would be best for the music. Any opinions? And, no I won't go in Redboys direction.

 

[Redboy]

It's time I build a decent base for the 498. Can anyone point me to the dimensions. Mostly the angle. It appears to be opposite the plinth angle.

I seem to have found that the original base, i.e. small, light and or petite. Used for belt drive. Versus, a larger block of wood, for an idler drive. Is the way to go.
I do like the looks of the standard base, but would like to to what would be best for the music. Any opinions? And, no I won't go in Redboys direction.

I think the original base (small and lightweight as you note) was similar to what was built for most turntables of the period, whether they were belt or idler driven. The idea of sinking resonance and vibration into a massive plinth is more recent, I think.

That said, I don't think you could go wrong by building a massive base for a non-suspended Empire, but in your case it may not make much difference - the 498 is suspended, right?

 

[golana]

- the 498 is suspended, right?

Suspended yes, like a trampoline.
Just trying to make good decisions. I've been leaning to traditional, for that very reason.

 

[cplyons]

To all you more knowledgeable folk:

What's the correct adjustment to the springs on a 598? The weight of the arm assembly makes me fool with the adjustment until all the springs are roughly the same bounciness. I would say I've never been able to get to a Linn-like smoothness. What should I be shooting for?

 

[cplyons]

Just a couple pix

Oh yeah, since I'm askin questions should probably post what we're talking about. Here's what my 598 looks like...

 

[empirelvr]

To all you more knowledgeable folk:

What's the correct adjustment to the springs on a 598? The weight of the arm assembly makes me fool with the adjustment until all the springs are roughly the same bounciness. I would say I've never been able to get to a Linn-like smoothness. What should I be shooting for?

Empire's instructions advise to set the springs so that there is approximately 3/16 of an inch clearance all around the outer platter periphery. I found it helpful to do the measuring with the arm OUT of it's armrest (to avoid having the arm locked in the rest from influencing the position of the platter.) Make sure you use whatever stylus guard you have and keep the cue in the up position. And of course be VERY careful in your measuring to avoid stylus damage.

You're never going to get a Linn like smootheness in the bounce due to the felt washers that act as piston damping to the springs in the suspension system. The most you can hope for is a bounce that goes straight up and down for the one or two times the suspension moves before it settles back.

Now if you take the felts out like I talked about above, you'll get a LOT of smooth up and down bounces with no side to side motion following Empire's 3/16 of an inch all around rule of thumb, so it is good advice they gave.

 

[cplyons]

Thanks mucho, Empirelvr! I can't wait to get home to put your advice into practice.

Chris

 

[MrMonster]

Empire Platter Adjustmen.

Hello Lads,
Here is a tip on setting up the platters height on the 598 and 698 turntables.
A turntable being level is of high importance to any table due to the pressure on the stylus from an unlevel platter.

For the Empire with a suspended platter, you need to get the platter ring set to 3/16" of an inchh above the base.
A quick way to do this is to make a tool. I use a cheap wood ruler that is 1/8th or better in thickness with no curve to the surface use a flat wood ruler.
I cut the ruler into three four inch sections.

Remove the dust cover, and remove the tonearm for both safety of the stylus and arm, and to keep the arm's weight and angle from influencing the platter.

I set the plinth on top of four same size soup cans, placed on each corner, to make it easy to access the thumb screws on the suspension.
place the three ruler sections halfway under the platter ring at the same points of the springs. See photo...
You can then raise or lower all three adjusters until you are just touching the ruler evenly at all three points.
Remove the rulers and depress the platter about 6 to eight times and recheck the clearance again with the rulers, and make any adjustments necessary.

Then remove the soup can set the turntable flat on your work table and reinsert and setup the arm for height and clearance to the mag lift.

Hope this helps.

Donald Bowman

 

[cplyons]

A quick question re Mag Lift on 598

Just a quick poll - Do most of y'all whose Empires employ the mag lift use it? Mine makes a slight but nerve wrackingly audible lateral pull when it lifts off, and sounds like it might not be the best thing for a stylus to have to do... Is this typical? If so, does it scare any of you away from using this feature?

 

[MrMonster]

Empire Mag Lift

Hello,
As to the Mag Lift feature, if an empire arm was factory fresh, I would have no qualms about using it, but after 40 years of people adjusting re adjusting, and loosening the platform screw that Empire says in the manual to not touch, I would not use it.

On my 598's it works as it should, and puts nearly no stress on the stylus.
It is a nice gentle pickup of the arm. Now having said this, it took me about 10 hours of observation and adjusting to make this happen.
Now, I have no qualms about it picking up my vintage Shure V15 II cartridge and stylus.

There are four different angles on these arms to consider. The height of the arm, the relationship of the arm lug to magnet, the arm travel, and the platform with the Mag Lift to the arm itself.

Once someone changes these four positions out of alignment then this smooth system goes to hell. The primary problem lies in the the base of the arm, the portion with the mag lift and the cue being moved out of alignment from the arm itself. This also cause trouble with the cueing, as the lifter goes out of alignment with the lift tab on the tonearm.

I really don't know if I can write out a solution, as it took numerous trial and error attempts to get the alignment back to zero.

In the end, if you mag lift is making a fast jerk to the arm, just fold it back out of the way.

Donald Bowman

 

[cplyons]

Excellent, comprehensive answer. I'm putting it out to pasture! - Chris

 

[empirelvr]

Hello Lads,
Here is a tip on setting up the platters height on the 598 and 698 turntables.
A turntable being level is of high importance to any table due to the pressure on the stylus from an unlevel platter.

For the Empire with a suspended platter, you need to get the platter ring set to 3/16" of an inchh above the base.
A quick way to do this is to make a tool. I use a cheap wood ruler that is 1/8th or better in thickness with no curve to the surface use a flat wood ruler.
I cut the ruler into three four inch sections.

Remove the dust cover, and remove the tonearm for both safety of the stylus and arm, and to keep the arm's weight and angle from influencing the platter.

I set the plinth on top of four same size soup cans, placed on each corner, to make it easy to access the thumb screws on the suspension.
place the three ruler sections halfway under the platter ring at the same points of the springs. See photo...
You can then raise or lower all three adjusters until you are just touching the ruler evenly at all three points.
Remove the rulers and depress the platter about 6 to eight times and recheck the clearance again with the rulers, and make any adjustments necessary.

Then remove the soup can set the turntable flat on your work table and reinsert and setup the arm for height and clearance to the mag lift.

Hope this helps.

Donald Bowman

A nice technique but I have to respectfully disagree with you very strongly about taking the arm off to do this. It is important the arm stays ON with this adjustment otherwise you will knock the suspension you just adjusted out of balance when you put the arm back on due to the added weight of the arm which will throw everything off.

If you don't adjust the suspension with the arm on you will have the right rear part of the suspension all of a sudden heavier than it was, making the suspension now lean toawrds the right rear instead and not with an even 3/16" clearance all around as needed. Especially on the 598 where the arm wasn't the lightest of tonearms with a lot of it's mass centered about it's main bearing housing.

In fact I would (and do) balance my suspension not only with the tonearm on it, but with a 180 gram record on the platter as well. I know that's taking things to a fanatical degree, but it has been shown how important and influential suspension tuning is.

I totally agree that a level turntable is of paramount importance, not only just to keep stylus pressure even (which supposedly isn't as big an issue with dynamically balanced arms like the Empire tonearms,) but also to keep an even load on the platter bearing, which is a concept that doesn't get much ink.

 

[MrMonster]

A nice technique but I have to respectfully disagree with you very strongly about taking the arm off to do this. It is important the arm stays ON with this adjustment otherwise you will knock the suspension you just adjusted out of balance when you put the arm back on due to the added weight of the arm which will throw everything off.

Hello Lads,
I agree with Empirelvrs statement.
I actually misspoke, as I meant to say to remove the stylus not the arm,
When writing this reply, I was at the same time writing a private message to another member, trying to solve a tonearm problem with a 698 arm, and had tonearm on the mind.

So yes, leave the arm on but remove the stylus for safety sake.

Donald Bowman

 

[dlaloum]

Revox - Empire TT

Hi Folks

Although I know this turntable existed, and have heard it mentioned a few times... I have never seen images of it (much less in the flesh/metal)

Apparently during the Benz era, Empire bought complete Revox B291 Turntables (late 80's early 90's?), and modded them substantially...

Put heavier duty parts into the linear tracking tonearm, bypassed the muting circuit (which kept the table muted until after the stylus was in the track) - and did some other mods.

Does anyone out there know of one of these?

Are there details, photos etc...

I know this is a little bit of a cuckoo's egg in the nest... but it was a high end TT in the early 90's and apparently sold in Germany for circa DM4500.

Bye for now

David
(owner of a Revox B795, hoping to find clues as to how to mod his table...)

 

[empirelvr]

Apparently during the Benz era, Empire bought complete Revox B291 Turntables (late 80's early 90's?), and modded them substantially...

Put heavier duty parts into the linear tracking tonearm, bypassed the muting circuit (which kept the table muted until after the stylus was in the track) - and did some other mods.

I know this is a little bit of a cuckoo's egg in the nest... but it was a high end TT in the early 90's and apparently sold in Germany for circa DM4500.

David
(owner of a Revox B795, hoping to find clues as to how to mod his table...)

Hmmmm...I've never heard of this happening, although if your time frame is correct, it would have had nothing to do with "our" Empire.

Benz sold off the company in America by the mid-1980's, BUT kept the name "Empire Scientific" for his European company/operations, so it's possible this happened but had no distrubution, press or exposure in the USA at the time.

If true I'd think it would be somewhat outside the scope of our interest here, although it IS an interesting footnote/tangent. Considering how into phono reproduction Ernst Benz was, a modded Revox as you describe from him sounds like a very provocative model to try and track down.

 

[4140]

I bought an empire 598 II for 100. with two carts. an empire 999te/x and 1000te/x carts in case from the original owner. Its in great shape. dont know much about there tables. The tonearm looks a bit on the large size. I can only assume from reading this. that this was a good buy. I deal more with jap and british tables like garrard and marantz. I own about 25 tables and thinking about down sizing some. and not sure what ones to keep. Is there any stuff I can down load on this table?

 

[dlaloum]

Hmmmm...I've never heard of this happening, although if your time frame is correct, it would have had nothing to do with "our" Empire.

Benz sold off the company in America by the mid-1980's, BUT kept the name "Empire Scientific" for his European company/operations, so it's possible this happened but had no distrubution, press or exposure in the USA at the time.

If true I'd think it would be somewhat outside the scope of our interest here, although it IS an interesting footnote/tangent. Considering how into phono reproduction Ernst Benz was, a modded Revox as you describe from him sounds like a very provocative model to try and track down.

Thanks for that - it fills in the blanks - I remember being told it was by Empire in Germany.... but I thought Empire was a NY/US company....

Now I am starting to join the dots....

Sounds like I will have to lurk on German forums and use lots of google translate to track this down....

P.S. the original Empires are very droolworthy - but don't think they were ever imported to Australia, so my chance of finding one is negligible.... but you never know

 

[princeoftides]

Cleaning any piece of old audio equipment is best done with ammonia. Keep it away with electrical contacts and wood and soak it if possible but I met a guy who ran an audio store and he used this method on faceplates and knobs and I was amazed at what he could do with it. He said it's best to soak for days when you're dealing with years and years of smoke, grime and other pollutants but it's an amazing cleaner if you stay away from the fumes. BTW. Do not mix ammonia with any other cleaner. Otherwise you may get toxic fumes.