Sonus Faber Concerto Grand Piano Speakers...help needed

[Mystery]

Bittersweet experience on my 1st mid-fi speakers.

I got them without testing but was told they worked before storing.
Was excited but there is good news and bad news.
Bad:
Both tweeters are kaput (or crossover--have to research on that). <-- :tears:
One mid driver has small ding, not a hole so not too bad.
Drivers have slight orange hue due to oxidation. I've seen similar in Polk speakers as well. What cleans that best?
Cabinet has scratches on the bottom sharp/round corners where black paint is gone.
One jumper is missing but there is a copper speaker wire instead.
Grill cloth has few snags and holes.
Few grill pegs are broken.

Good:
Mid and woofer both work.
Even without tweeter sound is very smooth so definitely worthy of fix.
Price is good even if I have to buy two tweeters but really depends upon how much they are.
Can still return it to the PO as I bought them untested.

Any idea on what kind of tweeters are used and their cost?
I heard someone saying exact same tweeter is available at parts-express.
This is my 1st over the mid line gear and would like to make it work.
What say you?
Thanks for suggestions.

Here are few pics:

Along side of Klipsch RF-3's:

 

[JimPA]

Mystery have you read the Stereophile review?

My guess is that the Seas tweeters are oem made for Sonus Faber like the woofer due to the 2300hz 6db per octave crossover used on the tweeter.

Most oem drivers are never sold to the general public by the driver manufacturing company due to contracts.

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/269/

 

[ivandezande]

Those look like speakers worth a fix! If you take out the crossover and the tweeter and you know they've bit the dust, the folks at parts express will for sure let you know if they have a good tweeter that will match up decently if you give them a call, I've had great experiences with them in the past.

 

[Mystery]

Mystery have you read the Stereophile review?

My guess is that the Seas tweeters are oem made for Sonus Faber like the woofer due to the 2300hz 6db per octave crossover used on the tweeter.

Most oem drivers are never sold to the general public by the driver manufacturing company due to contracts.

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/269/

Yes, I've been all over the internet and I think I found the tweeter.
You are right, they are Seas 3/4" tweeter and I've good info.
Read below.

Those look like speakers worth a fix! If you take out the crossover and the tweeter and you know they've bit the dust, the folks at parts express will for sure let you know if they have a good tweeter that will match up decently if you give them a call, I've had great experiences with them in the past.

I tested with a spare tweeter and tweeter works so crossover is good.
More on my troubleshooting below:

**********************
Found exact tweeter online. Well the model is same at least.

It's a Seas 3/4" tweeter.
I took the tweeter out from one speaker and it looks like this:

Then I searched the part # 19TFF and this came up: :smile:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...estige-19tff1-h0737-3/4-textile-dome-tweeter/

It's the same model tweeter less the 'Sonus Faber' label in the front.
The back has few numbers different.
Instead of 827-8 Ohm 17/99, madisoundspeakerstore has 737-8 Ohm 8/10.
Not sure what those numbers mean.

BTW, I tested with a spare SL2000 on Seas' place and tweeter works so crossover is fine on that one and I assume same with other.
Even SL2000 made them sound pretty good during test.
It'll set me back little bit but I'm not gonna find another pair at reasonable price so they are not going back.

BTW, what cleans that orange oxidation?
I used windex on Polk speakers but would like to know if there is better option.
Thanks

 

[Mystery]

Mystery have you read the Stereophile review?

My guess is that the Seas tweeters are oem made for Sonus Faber like the woofer due to the 2300hz 6db per octave crossover used on the tweeter.

Most oem drivers are never sold to the general public by the driver manufacturing company due to contracts.

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/269/

Yes, I've been all over the internet and I think I found the tweeter.
You are right, they are Seas 3/4" tweeter and I've good info.
Read below.

Those look like speakers worth a fix! If you take out the crossover and the tweeter and you know they've bit the dust, the folks at parts express will for sure let you know if they have a good tweeter that will match up decently if you give them a call, I've had great experiences with them in the past.

I tested with a spare tweeter and tweeter works so crossover is good.
More on my troubleshooting below:

**********************
Found exact tweeter online. Well the model is same at least.

It's a Seas 3/4" tweeter.
I took the tweeter out from one speaker and it looks like this:

Then I searched the part # 19TFF and this came up:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...estige-19tff1-h0737-3/4-textile-dome-tweeter/

It's the same model tweeter less the 'Sonus Faber' label in the front.
The back has few numbers different.
Instead of 827-8 Ohm 17/99, madisoundspeakerstore has 737-8 Ohm 8/10.
Not sure what those numbers mean.

BTW, I tested with a spare SL2000 on Seas' place and tweeter works so crossover is fine on that one and I assume same with other.
Even SL2000 made them sound pretty good during test.
It'll set me back little bit but I'm not gonna find another pair at reasonable price so they are not going back.

 

[Dr. Morbius]

Mystery, those tweeters from Madisound were pretty common back in the day. They were used in many speaker models including DCM Timeframes and Timewidows.

Should you order them and test them out, I'd love to hear what you think of them.

 

[HTWillie]

19TFF SF I'm guessing refers to a classification, or chassis, 19mm (Tweeter Ferro Fluid maybe?) with the Sonus Faber logo.

H827 is the actual model number. 8-ohm might indicate it's an 8-ohm driver.

17/99 and 8/10 are probably week/year manufacturing codes.

It might fit the cabinet cutout perfectly, but I'd always wonder how different it is from the original tweeter model. It's quite possible SF specified a particular electrical, mechanical, or material tweak to fine tune an otherwise off-the-shelf Seas driver.

 

[Mystery]

19TFF SF I'm guessing refers to a classification, or chassis, 19mm (Tweeter Ferro Fluid maybe?) with the Sonus Faber logo.

H827 is the actual model number. 8-ohm might indicate it's an 8-ohm driver.

17/99 and 8/10 are probably week/year manufacturing codes.

It might fit the cabinet cutout perfectly, but I'd always wonder how different it is from the original tweeter model. It's quite possible SF specified a particular electrical, mechanical, or material tweak to fine tune an otherwise off-the-shelf Seas driver.

827 vs 737 is the remaining mystery then.
Hmm...

 

[hatrack71]

Looks to me like the domes are made out of different material. Both are 19mm though. I pretty much like all SEAS tweeters I've heard. All the way up to the 27mm domes.

 

[thymanst]

Sumico is sonus North American distributed - I had a pair of grand piano homes that I sold - the person buying them wanted new grill cover for one of them - I tryed to contact sumico, sonus, my local dealer to try and source one , buy not one of them ever got back with me.... The Sonus tweeters do have ferrofluid in them- they may have dried up - I've had issues with Mac , meridian tweeters that lost output because of the fluid.

 

[lunchbox22]

I'm pulling for this restore!

 

[Mystery]

Mystery, those tweeters from Madisound were pretty common back in the day. They were used in many speaker models including DCM Timeframes and Timewidows.

Should you order them and test them out, I'd love to hear what you think of them.

Will update.

Looks to me like the domes are made out of different material. Both are 19mm though. I pretty much like all SEAS tweeters I've heard. All the way up to the 27mm domes.

Looks same texture. Coating on the old dome may be fading/gone.
I found these pics, look same, may be slightly darker but I used flash in my pic:

From http://forum.zelfbouwaudio.nl/viewtopic.php?t=5589:

Side-by-side:

Sumico is sonus North American distributed - I had a pair of grand piano homes that I sold - the person buying them wanted new grill cover for one of them - I tryed to contact sumico, sonus, my local dealer to try and source one , buy not one of them ever got back with me.... The Sonus tweeters do have ferrofluid in them- they may have dried up - I've had issues with Mac , meridian tweeters that lost output because of the fluid.

I emailed Seas and Madison to see what their opinion is on this.
thanks

 

[JimPA]

I am surprised that Sonus Faber is using a 6db per octave crossover at 2300hz
with the tweeter having a Fs of 1700hz.
I wonder if Sonus Faber is using a RC contour circuit to further protect the tweeter?
Mystery is there any chance of seeing the tweeter crossover schematic or values used?

 

[Mystery]

I am surprised that Sonus Faber is using a 6db per octave crossover at 2300hz
with the tweeter having a Fs of 1700hz.
I wonder if Sonus Faber is using a RC contour circuit to further protect the tweeter?
Mystery is there any chance of seeing the tweeter crossover schematic or values used?

Can't find schematics yet.
If it's crossed over at 2300Hz and tweeter has 1700Hz, why need to protect?
If it's the other way around, then protection is needed, no?

Here's from Stereophile:

The Grand Piano is a two-way design utilizing a 7" acrylic-treated paper-cone woofer designed to SF's specs by SEAS, crossed over at 2.3kHz via a first-order (6dB/octave) filter to a ¾" silk-domed, ferrofluid-cooled SEAS tweeter. A 7" passive radiator with a textured cone surface controls the bass backwave.

 

[JimPA]

Can't find schematics yet.
If it's crossed over at 2300Hz and tweeter has 1700Hz, why need to protect?
:

The 2300hz crossover at 6db per octave is pushing the tweeters very hard.
Even a very high power handling tweeter has it's limits being crossed over that low.
The recommended crossover from the spec sheet is 2500hz at 12db per octave for thee Seas 19 TFF1
I wouldn't ever think of crossing over a tweeter at 2300hz 6db per octave with a Fs of 1700hz in a crossover design.

Even the Hiquphon 3/4" that have a Fs of 850hz are recommended to be crossed over at least at 2500hz at 12 db per octave.

IMHO the tweeters fried from being played very loud due to having such a low crossover frequency in their design.

I remember hearing the Sonus Faber Grand Piano's at the former Tweeter center audio store when they first entered the market.

 

[Mystery]

The 2300hz crossover at 6db per octave is pushing the tweeters very hard.
Even a very high power handling tweeter has it's limits being crossed over that low.
The recommended crossover from the spec sheet is 2500hz at 12db per octave for thee Seas 19 TFF1
I wouldn't ever think of crossing over a tweeter at 2300hz 6db per octave with a Fs of 1700hz in a crossover design.

Even the Hiquphon 3/4" that have a Fs of 850hz are recommended to be crossed over at least at 2500hz at 12 db per octave.

IMHO the tweeters fried from being played very loud due to having such a low crossover frequency in their design.

I remember hearing the Sonus Faber Grand Piano's at the former Tweeter center audio store when they first entered the market.

I see.
I read Hiquphon OW1 was upgrade over the Seas 19TFF1's but they are no longer available plus expensive if available.
Seas will be $75 for a pair shipped so that's better option for now.
I'm sure if Sonus used them in $3.5k speakers, they must have done some research so I'll trust their judgement.
Actually, I'm amazed that the tweeters are so inexpensive in them compared to their woofer that costs over $300.
thanks

 

[HTWillie]

That's about the most perfect response curve I've ever seen for a tweeter. My eyes are seeing 87.5dB +/- 0.5dB from 2000-20kHz.

My earlier assumption that SF may have tweaked this off-the-shelf driver - I can't imagine what's left to improve.

Discussion above presents convincing evidence the original crossover is poorly designed, so it's no surprise you found them with dead tweeters.

 

[Mystery]

Hmmm...
May need to add an in line fuse for the tweeters then.
Need to calculate correct value or just careful on the volume knob.

 

[Mystery]

I am surprised that Sonus Faber is using a 6db per octave crossover at 2300hz
with the tweeter having a Fs of 1700hz.
I wonder if Sonus Faber is using a RC contour circuit to further protect the tweeter?
Mystery is there any chance of seeing the tweeter crossover schematic or values used?

Got some replies from Sonus Faber dealers.
Basically, they say SF version of the tweeter is customized for Sonus Faber. Duh...
No one knows what that customization is, even Seas doesn't explain due to non-disclosure agreement.
I got quote from them: $100 to $120 each plus tax and shipping from Italy.

Even the Hiquphon OW1 which is upgrade over the original was cheaper than that.
Many other forums suggest 19tff1 is the replacement so I'll order the 19TFF1 tweeters and give a go.

 

[Dr. Morbius]

Many other forums suggest 19tff1 is the replacement so I'll order the 19TFF1 tweeters and give a go.

:thmbsp: As stated before, I'll be keeping an eye out for your assessment of these tweeters. I plan to use a pair in some DCM TF-1000s that I'm restoring.