nu2toobs
Can you here that?
Count me in on the insinuationYou're quite right jd but for the record I didn't accuse, I just insinuated.
Sorry But Idler-Wheel TT's Do Not Make Sense
- Thread starter jdscott60
- Start date
boreas
"If it sounds good, it IS good." E.K.E.
nu2toobs
Can you here that?
For example, my Technics SL-3200, by all means an entry level (or close to it) semi-auto DD TT, spec. sheet showing.
Well you should of told us you had an SL-3200 first. Now we know why you have such strong opinions:scratch2:
JesusChrysler
...drives a Dodge ; )
Damn It!!!!!!
I Hate It when I read thru a bunch of posts on a thread and at the end I Don't Give A ****!!!!
Man I got sucked in again another thread where reality ends and I have no hope for a meaningful ending...
I Hate It when I read thru a bunch of posts on a thread and at the end I Don't Give A ****!!!!
Man I got sucked in again another thread where reality ends and I have no hope for a meaningful ending...
boreas
"If it sounds good, it IS good." E.K.E.
I had a Lenco L 75. Rumble clearly audible, despite attempts by myself and service people to fix. Found the arm fiddly to set up and not a brilliant tracker. Sold it and haven't bothered with ID since.
I have a bid in on another L75 at the moment. However, that's only because if I win it at that price, I can sell it on at a nice profit.
Why so much heat? Providing your turntable can turn a disc at the right speed and introduces no extraneous noise, put on a record and be happy.
I have a bid in on another L75 at the moment. However, that's only because if I win it at that price, I can sell it on at a nice profit.
Why so much heat? Providing your turntable can turn a disc at the right speed and introduces no extraneous noise, put on a record and be happy.
You know, this is a funny thread. I like it. It could only happen on Audiokarma. When I first got into audio, every table I knew of was idler drive... everything. I too have sanded rubber wheels and tweaked springs. On a few tables i had, if the wheel got slick, it could not get enough traction to propel the platter thru the changing functions like dropping a record. it would just stop, whine and burn a rut in the rubber wheel. All part of the era for me. I think you had to be there. Thanks for bring those memories back. I think it would be a fun engineering exercise to update the idler table with today's methods and materials.
Turntable specifications are very limited. I'm not saying they're useless, they're just not complete enough to give much of an indication of how a turntable is going to sound. Plenty of turntables have nearly identical specs- and one will sound good, the other won't. That's based on owning them, not 'spec'ulation. And the tables you're basing your assumptions on, are not the best examples to be basing your assumptions on.
Each turntable presents its own issues- and the idler drives CAN have higher rumble. But that can also be largely eliminated. And what you gain is incredible momentum, from such a direct link from motor to platter (usually a large, torquey motor, too...which is also something that can result in an impressively dynamic sound).
I wish I had a VPI Super Scoutmaster with rim-drive on hand to put against your SL-3200. You might very quickly reassess your original position. Or heck, a TD-124 in a massive plinth.
http://www.vpiindustries.com/static.php?page=Super_Scoutmaster_Turntable
I have examples of belt, DD and idler here. I like them all, and they all have their unique charms. Its not a contest.
Each turntable presents its own issues- and the idler drives CAN have higher rumble. But that can also be largely eliminated. And what you gain is incredible momentum, from such a direct link from motor to platter (usually a large, torquey motor, too...which is also something that can result in an impressively dynamic sound).
I wish I had a VPI Super Scoutmaster with rim-drive on hand to put against your SL-3200. You might very quickly reassess your original position. Or heck, a TD-124 in a massive plinth.
http://www.vpiindustries.com/static.php?page=Super_Scoutmaster_Turntable
I have examples of belt, DD and idler here. I like them all, and they all have their unique charms. Its not a contest.
illinoisteve
Super Member
There are crappy turntables of all drive styles: Idler, belt, and Direct. By the same token there are pro quality turntables of all drive styles. All the drive styles are capable of professional audiophile quality results. All. ....I agree with Phototone. There are probababy a lot of belt-drives with stretched, springy belts that haven't fallen off yet that are noisier and have more wow and flutter than some cheap idlers in good condition.
On the other hand, I am content to accept that various turntable fans will prefer belt-drive or direct drive machines over idlers. That's fine with me. It would be less competition for folks like me who might be bidding on a used Dual idler.
KentTeffeteller
Gimpus Stereophilus!
There are good and bad of every kind of turntable. If you replinthed that Lenco and installed a better tonearm and joined Lenco Heaven for advice, I'd bet you'd keep it for good. They're that fine.
He walked in here and said "I don't mean to judge but your turntables suck" and then acted surprised when people were taken aback. He has the right to do so- but folks also have the right to at least offer evidence to refute his assumptions. Those weren't attacks, they were telling him that his assumptions are based on incredibly flimsy evidence.
He gave an example of a very cheap idler drive table, then made a general statement that they all suck. Then throws in a Dual...but doesn't remember what model, to solidify his claim. I think this would have happened no matter which drive system he would have disliked.
thisOne
Listen...
I'm surprised that no one has touched upon one other aspect of performance differential between the different drive systems of turntables.
Considering that there are three components to a TT drive system, a motor, a belt and an idler drive, one must consider the impact that each of these will have on sound quality.
The motor is common to every type of TT so it is safe to dismiss it as having any significant impact on TT sound signature (let's just assume for the sake of the discusion that the motor is the same in our TT analysis).
That leaves the rubber belt and the rubber idler wheel at the crux of the debate.
Making an objectivelly measured, empirical comparison between these two drive elements one will find that, although at the molecular level, the two might be the same, they do not have the same mass, or the same coefficeient of elasticity.
As such, and in order to assure that either piece of rubber supports the reproduction of sound to its fullest potential, the drive element in question (whether it be the belt or the idler) MUST BE PROPERLY CONDITIONED.
It is a scientifically proven fact that the idler wheel, being of greater mass, needs longer time to be properly conditioned vs. a belt (lower mass and moment of inertia), for the molecules within it to be properly aligned to create that resonance free structure that most of the participants in this thread attribute to the superior sound of the idler wheel driven TT.
It seems to me that the Duals and the Garrards, and other such TTs referred to in this thread, being in use for the last 35 years, have had the time and opportunity to have their idler wheels properly conditioned.
Had the OP continue to listen to his BSR TT for the past 35 years he might have found that by now, that TT (with its by now properly conditioned idler wheel) would sound much more superior (or at least on par) with any type of TT mentioned in this thread.
So there you are, you must condition yer rubbers...
And now, it's time to go and cook my interconnects...
Considering that there are three components to a TT drive system, a motor, a belt and an idler drive, one must consider the impact that each of these will have on sound quality.
The motor is common to every type of TT so it is safe to dismiss it as having any significant impact on TT sound signature (let's just assume for the sake of the discusion that the motor is the same in our TT analysis).
That leaves the rubber belt and the rubber idler wheel at the crux of the debate.
Making an objectivelly measured, empirical comparison between these two drive elements one will find that, although at the molecular level, the two might be the same, they do not have the same mass, or the same coefficeient of elasticity.
As such, and in order to assure that either piece of rubber supports the reproduction of sound to its fullest potential, the drive element in question (whether it be the belt or the idler) MUST BE PROPERLY CONDITIONED.
It is a scientifically proven fact that the idler wheel, being of greater mass, needs longer time to be properly conditioned vs. a belt (lower mass and moment of inertia), for the molecules within it to be properly aligned to create that resonance free structure that most of the participants in this thread attribute to the superior sound of the idler wheel driven TT.
It seems to me that the Duals and the Garrards, and other such TTs referred to in this thread, being in use for the last 35 years, have had the time and opportunity to have their idler wheels properly conditioned.
Had the OP continue to listen to his BSR TT for the past 35 years he might have found that by now, that TT (with its by now properly conditioned idler wheel) would sound much more superior (or at least on par) with any type of TT mentioned in this thread.
So there you are, you must condition yer rubbers...
And now, it's time to go and cook my interconnects...
Not that this is a serious thread...........but, I wonder if people that complain about idler drive TTs really have the idler adjusted correctly?
Most people I run into in this hobby are hands off types, I can appreciate this site because most here aren't.
You get out what you put in.
Most people I run into in this hobby are hands off types, I can appreciate this site because most here aren't.
You get out what you put in.
It is the nature of most higher intelligence living entities to mistrust what has burned them, and to embrace what has treated them well. Reeducation is possible, but it takes time and patience, and it might not stick forever. (Cards on the table, there are a few commercial brand names I may never trust again in my lifetime.) Some of us came into record playing with clanking, clacking and rattling rim drive changers and may forever associate those sounds with rim drives. Those who came in with later vintage quietly operating quality rim drives may never have those rooted detriments to deter them.
As an interesting associated side line, I recently had to deal with a dog which had been mistreated in earlier years. It distrusted human males while it easily tolerated the close presence of human females. It would tolerate a human male it a human female was present. It took some time for me to gain it's acceptance so I could feed it and refresh it's water. It has a new owner now, and still only tolerates human males on a case by case basis.
As an interesting associated side line, I recently had to deal with a dog which had been mistreated in earlier years. It distrusted human males while it easily tolerated the close presence of human females. It would tolerate a human male it a human female was present. It took some time for me to gain it's acceptance so I could feed it and refresh it's water. It has a new owner now, and still only tolerates human males on a case by case basis.
SaSi
Seriously Illogical
I could have posted a similar post with my experience with belt drive TTs. A few years ago a friend gave me his old TT, a belt drive "Electron". It had a sub-platter under the platter (same like several Thorens) and the pitch was adjusted by a mechanical lever that raised and lowered a guide to the belt.
It had a S shaped tonearm, antiscating, and all the bells and whistles of a typical auto return table.
Oh, and I forgot to mention it was plastic throughout, plinth, floating chasis, sub platter, even the tonearm (perhaps).
And it sounded like junk and it had no grounding wire and it hummed like hell.
So I was quickly back to my original TT of my childhood, a humble Dual 1009 (with no antiscating, no que lever and an idler that became hard and slippery and almost unable to get the heavy platter up to speed.
Based on *my* experience some 20 years ago, all TTs were junk and that's why the CD came out for the resque, right?
What I'm trying to say is: Each one of us has their own experiences that carve views about things, be it Turntables (DD vs BD vs ID), amps (tubes vs Mosfet vs Darlington) or politics.
BTW, once 4 wheel drive was developed, why are there still front/back wheel drive cars being made?
It had a S shaped tonearm, antiscating, and all the bells and whistles of a typical auto return table.
Oh, and I forgot to mention it was plastic throughout, plinth, floating chasis, sub platter, even the tonearm (perhaps).
And it sounded like junk and it had no grounding wire and it hummed like hell.
So I was quickly back to my original TT of my childhood, a humble Dual 1009 (with no antiscating, no que lever and an idler that became hard and slippery and almost unable to get the heavy platter up to speed.
Based on *my* experience some 20 years ago, all TTs were junk and that's why the CD came out for the resque, right?
What I'm trying to say is: Each one of us has their own experiences that carve views about things, be it Turntables (DD vs BD vs ID), amps (tubes vs Mosfet vs Darlington) or politics.
BTW, once 4 wheel drive was developed, why are there still front/back wheel drive cars being made?
Arkay
Lunatic Member
That's it... accuse me of twisting things around and quoting selectively... when I did no such thing. I responded to some of the multiple flaws in your OP, which I had to do one at a time, to make the response points comprehensible to any reader. But feel free to backtrack and contradict yourself, to make it seem as if I were doing this; that's what good trolls do.
As for showing specs... :lmao: The attempt to appear objective is cleverer than what most trolls come up with... idler-drive TTs have been resurrected from the audio graveyard only since some people worked out how to make them sound good: minimize rumble and mount them solidly into a large/massive vibration-sinking plinth. Back in their heyday, the manufacturers didn't yet know to do this, and sold them in resonant boxes that were almost as inert as guitar bodies, or let people drop them into resonant consoles, using flimsy board cut-outs. The specs available on idlers would come from that era, and not from today's re-plinthed wonders, so of course the specs would support your position. There is absolutely nothing objective or scientific about that, though, as today's transplanted (heavy plinth) idlers are a completely different "animal." It would be like saying a local mutt is faster than a cheetah, because you used small house cat in the comparison, instead of the cheetah.
Also interesting that as soon as the thread turned a bit "difficult" and you'd gotten a largely negative response from multiple people, you declared the thread "dead" and absented yourself. More typical troll behavior. If you're like most good trolls, you'll now sit back a few days to enjoy reading what you've started, and then come back in with new fuel for the fire when the time seems right. Don't expect more response from me, though; I have short patience with those who live under bridges; they're not entertaining for long.
To paraphrase an old Chinese leader, iF it talks and walks and acts like a troll, it's a troll!
You might want to read up on what people do with these over on Lenco Heaven, before re-selling it. You'll probably be shocked at how good these TTs can be made to sound, if you give yours "the works" first. I'l bet if you do, you won't want to sell it afterward.
QFT / +! :thmbsp:
I'm surprised that no one has touched upon one other aspect of performance differential between the different drive systems of turntables.
Considering that there are three components to a TT drive system, a motor, a belt and an idler drive, one must consider the impact that each of these will have on sound quality.
The motor is common to every type of TT so it is safe to dismiss it as having any significant impact on TT sound signature (let's just assume for the sake of the discusion that the motor is the same in our TT analysis).
That leaves the rubber belt and the rubber idler wheel at the crux of the debate.
Making an objectivelly measured, empirical comparison between these two drive elements one will find that, although at the molecular level, the two might be the same, they do not have the same mass, or the same coefficeient of elasticity.
As such, and in order to assure that either piece of rubber supports the reproduction of sound to its fullest potential, the drive element in question (whether it be the belt or the idler) MUST BE PROPERLY CONDITIONED.
It is a scientifically proven fact that the idler wheel, being of greater mass, needs longer time to be properly conditioned vs. a belt (lower mass and moment of inertia), for the molecules within it to be properly aligned to create that resonance free structure that most of the participants in this thread attribute to the superior sound of the idler wheel driven TT.
It seems to me that the Duals and the Garrards, and other such TTs referred to in this thread, being in use for the last 35 years, have had the time and opportunity to have their idler wheels properly conditioned.
Had the OP continue to listen to his BSR TT for the past 35 years he might have found that by now, that TT (with its by now properly conditioned idler wheel) would sound much more superior (or at least on par) with any type of TT mentioned in this thread.
So there you are, you must condition yer rubbers...
And now, it's time to go and cook my interconnects...
:lmao: Brilliant! :thmbsp: I'd love to take time to respond to this with my experiences in conditioning, but I have to go dig up my bearings to see if they've been earth-aged long enough yet. It's important sometimes to get one's bearings. Besides, talking about conditioning rubbers might cross the lines for a family forum.