Sound problems after a test record set up

[L-82]

I am not sure if this is where i should post this?

I've been listening to my system now for about 2 years and during that time it involved to what I think is a very good set up.
About a week ago i got a test record, the "Shure audio Obstacle Trackability" to finetune my turntable and system.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/121604502732?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

I have a few questions because it doesn't sound the way I remember it used to before the record - things seem to be off. Voices are not as sharp,almost garglie, the sound stage is not as wide and last night, while listening to Barbra Streisand when she hits her high notes she was kicking the but of my system's butt, it fell apart at the seems.

Here are some of the changes

First I adjusted the cart to the head shell, the stylus is set 15.6mm from the center of the tt spindle is that correct? I am asking because the the fron cart suprpasses the head shell by about 1.5mm. I have the arm set just a bit higher at the rear pivot point instead of level with the platter.

Second: Using the test record (tracking weight at 1.4gr) I balanced the outputs (Balance and Phasing stage)of the amp by adding gain until the needle hit the zero db on the meters and balanced the speakers levels at the level adjustments on the top of my preamp C-28. Tone levels are flat with loud off.

I didn't try the to switch back to the shure 97XE with a SAS to see if it would better and if the Signet was the problem because as the record went through the testing phase of the stylus ability to track during the Bells, cymbals, violins i thought that it sounded very strong up to level 5 where Shures says that most carts fail. The only time my system had a problem was at level five with the drums it rattles too much.

Is 14 Grams too light for my cart? could it be that i have too much gain and the amp?
ill try to get more information latter i'm going to retest everything

 

[ChrisNC]

Do you really mean 14 grams tracking weight? What was it before you made the adjustments?

 

[Z-Dogg]

14 grams sounds like it would be eating your records alive I personally wouldn't recommend more than 4 but even 3 is stretching it. I personally like to track around 2 to 2.5 grams

 

[JoeESP9]

What did you use to determine the cartridge overhang. I also have to ask did you mean 1.4 grams and not 14?

 

[Ths364]

Without knowing what the turntable is, it's impossible to know if the overhang is set correctly. You can use an alignment protractor (there are several that you can print from the web or pm me your address and I'll mail one to you).
If most carts fail at level five (as yours did) I wouldn't worry about that part of it.

If you are tracking at 14 grams you're metaphorically wading in doo-doo wearing clown shoes, and it SHOULD sound awful

 

[L-82]

Do you really mean 14 grams tracking weight? What was it before you made the adjustments?

1.4 grams sorry

 

[L-82]

Without knowing what the turntable is, it's impossible to know if the overhang is set correctly. You can use an alignment protractor (there are several that you can print from the web or pm me your address and I'll mail one to you).
If most carts fail at level five (as yours did) I wouldn't worry about that part of it.

If you are tracking at 14 grams you're metaphorically wading in doo-doo wearing clown shoes, and it SHOULD sound awful

The turntable is a Sansui SR929

 

[the_nines]

1. You can't do any testing until you properly setup your cart with a protractor.

I think I have the same test record, with a different cover maybe?



2. If the system sounded fine before the test record but sounds off now, it could be that some of the test tracks threw-off or even damaged the cart, especially side 2 (tonearm resonance, 4,5,6,8,10 & 12 hertz). The 12 hertz track is scary. The test record says "NOTE: If the oscillations look large, stop the test. Stylus or record damage can result."

If you have another cart, set it up the best you can and play a different record that you are familiar with its sound (not Streisand as it may have become a victim to a damaged stylus. You never know.)

 

[L-82]

Don't tell me that!! My test record is not the same but similar, Thank you Nines, i don't think that i pushed it hard enough to damage the cart. It never jumped once. I am sure it is a series of adjustments that through everything of. i looked at the azimuth on the signet it might be off, ill check it again tonight after work.

 

[4-2-7]

Clean the stylus, test records are not used much so the grooves get dirty.

 

[the_nines]

Don't tell me that!! My test record is not the same but similar, Thank you Nines, i don't think that i pushed it hard enough to damage the cart. It never jumped once. I am sure it is a series of adjustments that through everything of. i looked at the azimuth on the signet it might be off, ill check it again tonight after work.

No sweat.

Make sure the cart is aligned properly, this is really important. Use a protractor, again, this is really important. Then, you can proceed with the test. Follow the instructions (and advice/warnings) on the test record.

Keep us posted and good luck!

Cheers.

 

[L-82]

I started with the azimuth adjust - it was a bit off and I adjusted the stylus further back in the head shell. I am playing with VTA it was set quite high at the pivote point...maybe that could of been the biggest culprit

 

[Lapslah]

Can you be more specific about how you "balanced the outputs and speaker levels"? It sounds to me like you may have upset your gain staging - if you did something other than simply changed the volume.

 

[JoeESP9]

I started with the azimuth adjust - it was a bit off and I adjusted the stylus further back in the head shell. I am playing with VTA it was set quite high at the pivote point...maybe that could of been the biggest culprit

This indicates that you are not using a stylus protractor to align the cartridge. To get the sort of playback your gear is capable of you must properly align the cartridge. The best way to do this is with a stylus protractor. You can buy one (there are several available) or you can download one for free from www.vinylengine.com

This is more important than the VTA or SRA.

 

[the_nines]

I started with the azimuth adjust - it was a bit off and I adjusted the stylus further back in the head shell. I am playing with VTA it was set quite high at the pivote point...maybe that could of been the biggest culprit

When you say you adjusted the stylus further back in the head-shell, are you using a protactor? Because if you are, there is one and only one place that stylus should be at, and the cart should be square to the grid of the protractor. Without a protractor, you're basically "pissing in the wind" . In my case, I use a Geo-Disc alignment tool:

This basic principle should apply to other protractors, stylus must be on the dot and square to grid.


The VTA: With the table stopped, place the tonearm on the record. The tonearm and record should be parallel, meaning the distance from record to tonearm should be the same at any point on the record. With VTA set correctly, the stylus should be sitting at 90 degrees to the record groove (may need to be a tad more, adjust according to what you hear). But, nothing major.

Azimuth: Place a small mirror on the platter and drop the cart on the mirror. Kneel down and look straight ahead at the front of the cart. The reflection should be an identical opposite, nothing leaning to the left or right.

 

[L-82]

Yes I am using a mirrored tool protractor.
The owner manual of the Sansui Sr-929 says that the stylus tip should be 15.6mm past the center spindle of the table. If I follow that, the body of cartridge will be sticking out past the headshell by about 2mm(look at the attached picture) so all I was to moved it back so that it is flush with the headshell (looking for the picture I see that most are set with the cart sticking past the headshell)

The rest, azimuth and VTA i got.....merci mon ami pour les conseils :tresbon:

 

[Catcher10]

If the test record track (yes 12hz is super scary!!) did not mess up your cartridge then it seems your only issue is what you may have done by adjusting gain. Although not sure that would make your system sound garglie, that points to your cartridge not being aligned well.

I have the Analog Prod Ultimate test record and pretty much only use it to set azimuth with an o-scope..I use track 1,2,3 on side 1..pretty much stops there. I can say I have only improved the details, so you might need to start all over if you went that far backwards........As the nines states get yourself the appropriate protractor for your arm and start over.

Good luck!

 

[JoeESP9]

Yes I am using a mirrored tool protractor.
The owner manual of the Sansui Sr-929 says that the stylus tip should be 15.6mm past the center spindle of the table. If I follow that, the body of cartridge will be sticking out past the headshell by about 2mm(look at the attached picture) so all I was to moved it back so that it is flush with the headshell (looking for the picture I see that most are set with the cart sticking past the headshell)

The rest, azimuth and VTA i got.....merci mon ami pour les conseils :tresbon:

That means your cartridge is not properly aligned. That alone will heavily contribute to the problems you are experiencing. Correct cartridge alignment is about the measurements not the looks.

Were I you I would get one of the free protractors that vinyl engine offers and use it.

FWIW: I use a DB systems protractor I bought in the early 80's

 

[markn2wae]

A note on VTA.

IMHO, the cartridge MOUNTING SURFACE should be parallel to the record surface while in PLAYING POSITION using the proper tracking force.

Ideally this SHOULD result in the tone arm also being parallel to the record surface (not tipping back or pointing downward while playing).

My turntable (a Technics SL-1500) had the arm "pointing down" when I first installed the cartridge (a Stanton 681EEE) and noticed that both the arm AND the back of the cartridge where NOT parallel to the record surface.

When I held the arm parallel to the record, there was a gap between the stylus and the record of about a 32nd. of an inch, the cart needed to be "lowered".

I used some small washers to lower the cartridge in the head shell and re-balanced the arm keeping the alignment correct with a test record I have (it has a protractor on one side of it, I don't remember the brand).

An improvement was noted in all areas, tracking, sound-stage, and overall "listen-ability".

Granted, this was my result but seems to prove that IMHO, cartridges should be mounted parallel to the record surface to get the best (or close) to the proper VTA while playing, and since carts and head shells are all different, things MAY need a little "tweaking", your results may vary.

Mark T.

 

[L-82]

Your right I'm sure that the problems are cartridge Alignment I need to spend some time with the table and get it back on track