Speaker cables have shown to made a difference... does it matter?

[Brett a]

"Before this test 69% of our test subjects thought that speaker cables could make a significant difference. After this test, 86% believe that speaker cables can make significant differences."

I think this is indicative of the general trend. I've seen many people who were staunch believers in the "wire is wire" view, come to see for themselves that cables do make a difference.

The one person referred to in this article who went in thinking there was a difference and came out thinking there wasn't is the first person I've seen go in that direction.

I've just never seen anyone (other than that guy perhaps) say that they used to be way into the differences in cables but then came to realize they all sound the same---it just doesn't seem to happen.

 

[JohnVF]

I've just never seen anyone (other than that guy perhaps) say that they used to be way into the differences in cables but then came to realize they all sound the same---it just doesn't seem to happen.

I went from being a skeptic, to a sort of believer, to a not-carer. I don't just use lamp cord but I found the tradeoffs of using really expensive wire (the expense of the length I need, the look of most of it) not worth the benefit. I bought some expensive cables and they did sound better to some very slight degree, but it wasn't/isn't a make or break thing for me in my system whether it's there or not. Other changes, such as just moving the speakers around, trumped any difference I heard and sometimes it was just a difference, not a preference. I don't miss having green garden hoses in my living room, but I don't rule out spending money on speaker cable again in the future when and if I get a dedicated listening room and don't have to share living space in my living room with a giant cost-no-object stereo.

What I won't do, is dictate that my viewpoint be somebody elses, which is what I find so offense about the naysayers. I almost pulled the trigger on some fancy-ish speaker wire in Bartertown this morning because it met my requirement (for color...it blends with my carpet!) but it wasn't long enough.

Going to try anti-cable at some point when I get more room to play. I'm also going to keep my expensive AudioQuest Gardenhosery for future fun.

 

[Anubis]

Reason number 592 why I don't read stereo/audio magazines.
In my opinion the only thing that matters with speaker cables is gauge, length and correct terminators and of course, shielding. Oxygen-free is good to so as to prevent corrosion and such. Simple, no?:yes: Brand and price have nothing to do with anything....well, except your wallet that is.

 

[kirk57]

Reason number 592 why I don't read stereo/audio magazines.
In my opinion the only thing that matters with speaker cables is gauge, length and correct terminators and of course, shielding. Oxygen-free is good to so as to prevent corrosion and such. Simple, no?:yes: Brand and price have nothing to do with anything....well, except your wallet that is.

OK, but Stereophile didn't do the test, the Audio Society of Minnesota did.

Would you not be interested in participating in such a test?

I bet there was chips and dip afterwards!

 

[JohnVF]

Reason number 592 why I don't read stereo/audio magazines.
In my opinion the only thing that matters with speaker cables is gauge, length and correct terminators and of course, shielding. Oxygen-free is good to so as to prevent corrosion and such. Simple, no?:yes: Brand and price have nothing to do with anything....well, except your wallet that is.

And I could list a thousand reasons not to listen to anything you read on forums. But we're all here. At least with a reviewer, I know they've heard a few things and have a context for what they say. I can't say that about forums.

 

[Anubis]

OK, but Stereophile didn't do the test, the Audio Society of Minnesota did.

Would you not be interested in participating in such a test?

I bet there was chips and dip afterwards!

Not interested in participating in such a test, been there, done that. However, I would be interested in just listening to the music.
I'd also offer to prepare some appetizers for afterwards too.

 

[Anubis]

And I could list a thousand reasons not to listen to anything you read on forums. But we're all here. At least with a reviewer, I know they've heard a few things and have a context for what they say. I can't say that about forums.

Hmm, can't say that about reviewers on anything either though. The rub is that it's all subjective. A reviewer might say something sounds like crap and yet a majority of folks like it or visa versa.

 

[BmWr75]

The lack of more than one replicate in this experiment make it impossible to draw any statistical significance conclusions from this bunch of one-off experiments. Therefore, these so-called differences could just be by random chance.

Test 7 replicates Test 4. In Test 4, 29% of the participants could tell no difference. In Test 7, the people that could tell no difference fell to 10%. That may be a real or random 19 percentage point change in test subject indifference. Regardless, it shows the variability in these comparative test results is pretty high.

There is a right way to run experiments of this nature, but it takes way more than 7 runs to determine if real audible differences exist between 4 different speaker cables.

 

[JohnVF]

Hmm, can't say that about reviewers on anything either though. The rub is that it's all subjective. A reviewer might say something sounds like crap and yet a majority of folks like it or visa versa.

Except they don't usually say it sounds like crap. They give a pretty accurate description of the sound of something via all those audiophile terms that so many here get their panties in a bunch over (including...graininess and transparency, the most recent fire starters). Many times I have read a review of something where the reviewer wasn't blown away by it, but the description was accurate enough that I knew it was something that was right up my alley. And often, they'll state things as such if they don't like them. "Not my thing, but if you want this sound it could be yours".

And I can say they've heard stuff, because they've reviewed plenty of it. If you read a magazine you get a feel for the guys. For example, chances are if Art Dudley is into something, it's at least something that might intrigue me or be worth checking out.

Same with cables. When somebody like him says they have made this or that difference, I pay attention. Because when I've heard things that he's reviewed, for example, I had roughly the same opinion. Its just being open to other viewpoints. I never think that more information is a bad thing. But I'm increasingly skeptical of anything I read online. Nearly every amateur forum is flooded with people that have way more agenda than they have experience listening to different types of gear.

 

[Anubis]

Except they don't usually say it sounds like crap. They give a pretty accurate description of the sound of something via all those audiophile terms that so many here get their panties in a bunch over (including...graininess and transparency, the most recent fire starters). Many times I have read a review of something where the reviewer wasn't blown away by it, but the description was accurate enough that I knew it was something that was right up my alley. And often, they'll state things as such if they don't like them. "Not my thing, but if you want this sound it could be yours".

And I can say they've heard stuff, because they've reviewed plenty of it. If you read a magazine you get a feel for the guys. For example, chances are if Art Dudley is into something, it's at least something that might intrigue me or be worth checking out.

Same with cables. When somebody like him says they have made this or that difference, I pay attention. Because when I've heard things that he's reviewed, for example, I had roughly the same opinion. Its just being open to other viewpoints. I never think that more information is a bad thing. But I'm increasingly skeptical of anything I read online. Nearly every amateur forum is flooded with people that have way more agenda than they have experience listening to different types of gear.

Come now, when I said "reviewer said sounds like crap" that was not meant in the literal sense. Of course no reviewer doing their job honestly would just write that. I used to do music reviews and even if I didn't like a song or album personally, I didn't put down "sounds like crap". I did what you described, just gave a description of what I heard leaving it to others to decide if they like the song or album or not. It's impossible to turn a subjective into an affirmative.
My problem with most reviewers of audio gear, be it cables, turntables, receivers, amps what have you is that they are often in the back pockets of the sais manufacture or marketer and are therefore going to write what they are told to write, whether they have tried out the product or not. That holds especially true for magazines who's sole purpose is to sell stuff and advertise. (Of course they make their money by advertising and there's nothing wrong with that in and of itself).
Having said that, I also agree with you about what is read on-line and in forums. In my opinion, it just pays to be skeptical of all of it and let your ears decide and be the final judge.

 

[loonze]

do a simple blind a-b test at home with your kids and their friends-made a believer out of me! about 90% of the time everyone picked the same cable out of the three being tested as-''better''- no specifics-just ''better''

 

[VinylRob]

><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯ `· .¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>‏

There is a right way to run experiments of this nature, but it takes way more than 7 runs to determine if real audible differences exist between 4 different speaker cables.

Is there a right way, or many? and what would that look like, I'm curious?

Happy Listening!

 

[VinylRob]

><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯ `· .¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>‏

Reason number 592 why I don't read stereo/audio magazines.
In my opinion the only thing that matters with speaker cables is gauge, length and correct terminators and of course, shielding. Oxygen-free is good to so as to prevent corrosion and such. Simple, no?:yes: Brand and price have nothing to do with anything....well, except your wallet that is.

You may find if you read someone you agree with on many points, not only do they probably go through tons more gear than you do, they may just be aware of something you are yet to learn or discover. And the bonus is they may even be a more interesting read than the last thousand posts you've read on a Hifi web blog.

For me the only thing that matters with cable is... well, except for maybe looking impressive, I think you have just about covered it...Hmmm, maybe geometry, purity, cover material, lack of solder, grain orientation, method of annealing, cryo'ed or not, for me anyway, I don't know.

What is a "correct terminator" anyway? I'm still trying to decide. A zillion dollar wire with soldered connectors has always seemed retarded to me. Blue Jeans sonic weld, Cardas forges, both seem better options to me.

Happy (cable) Listening!

 

[BmWr75]

Is there a right way, or many? and what would that look like, I'm curious?

Happy Listening!

Hey Rob,

There are many "right" ways to run the experiment and get results for which statistical confidence intervals can be established. It is all boils down to how down to how much time and effort the experimenter and volunteers are willing to put into it. More replicate data will yield tighter confidence intervals......sometimes called margin of error.

Regards,
Scott

P.S. Enjoyed meeting you at AKFest.

 

[VinylRob]

><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯ `· .¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>‏

Hey Scott!

I wonder if at some point fatigue and attention span could start to have a detrimental effect while trying to recover enough feedback. Personally, my attention span is that of a common household fruit fly.

At the Fest we were talking about how I play (at the TT) at home in comparison to how I played for people rolling in and out of our SMAC room. I'm an Lp (long play) guy at heart (I grew up with the format of course), most often playing at least a side, if not a whole album. For me it is all about (even with pop or rock) the composition of the album, being in context. So listening experiments would be painful. I personally dread tube rolling and speaker wire sampling but realize it is the dirty work that makes pleasurable listening often, more pleasurable in the end.

Happy Listening!

 

[usedto]

I'm going to have to agree with a few previous posters on the parameters of the test. I don't doubt that appropriate speaker cables can make a difference, but undersizing is one of the worst things you could do. That being said, I don't think 16ga. wire was a reasonable choice for the comparison, given the amp and speakers. 14 minimum, 12 optional. Second, the amp crapped out halfway during the test. (That's tube for ya) Try as you might to mimic the first with the replacement, it can't be done - at least for a test of this sort. It should have been scrapped and re-done at some other time with "fresh ears".

The biggest issue I had is how the bald people were obviously weighted to the left side of the room, causing an obvious imbalance. Unless, of course, you want to argue that one shaved head is equal to two partially bald. But that's another TOL thread.

 

[VinylRob]

><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯ `· .¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>‏

I'm going to have to agree with a few previous posters on the parameters of the test. I don't doubt that appropriate speaker cables can make a difference, but undersizing is one of the worst things you could do. That being said, I don't think 16ga. wire was a reasonable choice for the comparison, given the amp and speakers. 14 minimum, 12 optional. Second, the amp crapped out halfway during the test. (That's tube for ya) Try as you might to mimic the first with the replacement, it can't be done - at least for a test of this sort. It should have been scrapped and re-done at some other time with "fresh ears".

Wire is just wire, right?! Why not through a real old nag into the race just for fun.

The biggest issue I had is how the bald people were obviously weighted to the left side of the room, causing an obvious imbalance. Unless, of course, you want to argue that one shaved head is equal to two partially bald. But that's another TOL thread.

You failed to mention that the high frequency first reflections off of those compromised non acoustically dampened heads may have effected everyone behind them.

Happy Listening!

 

[kirk57]

I would think that if you want to draw maximum contrast between the kind of speaker wires/cables, it would be desirable to go even *smaller* than 16g. maybe 18g solid core wire for example.

 

[Bigerik]

Lamp cord or zip cord is usually about 18 gauge, isn't it? That seems to be the standard that many people use around these parts, it seems.

 

[VinylRob]

><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯ `· .¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>‏

I would think that if you want to draw maximum contrast between the kind of speaker wires/cables, it would be desirable to go even *smaller* than 16g. maybe 18g solid core wire for example.

Like what people refer to as bell wire?

I know with some of the high efficiency compression driver horn guys, actually prefer that stuff, funny enough.

Happy Listening!