SPEC-1, Lower output on the right channel

markthefixer · Apr 12, 2022

IT DELIBERATELY USES two transistors that are opposite polarity twins... ("complements")

that was my goof, I knew that circuit used a pair of complements, just forgot to specify buying both "complements".

the difference between the 2sa912 and the a992 is mainly the case size,
to shed heat a bit better. the voltages, gains, currents and speed are all the same.

markthefixer · Apr 12, 2022

I missed lunch, I am NOT going to miss supper.

i'm GONE.

ajohnnyz · Apr 12, 2022

I get it. I have been an eBayer since 1999 and have had a great experience.

I ordered:

Mouser Electronics P/N: 660-MF1/4DCT52R1201F - 100 QTY | eBay
and
10 pairs KSC1845F KSA992F (C1845F A992F) Transistors TO92 USA SELLER GENUINE | eBay

ajohnnyz · Apr 13, 2022

markthefixer said:
parts being researched.. I'm not sure if I did a reverse engineering of these transistors & circuits... probably ksc1845's

120 ohm resistors: ~~660-MF1/4LCT52R121J~~ no, use 660-MF1/4DCT52R1200F

1%, 100ppm @10cents vs 5% 200ppm @13cents and more alternatives from different companies

I just saw this, 660-MF1/4DCT52R1201F!
I was able to cancel and order the right ones 660-MF1/4DCT52R1200F.

ajohnnyz · Apr 16, 2022

I was just looking at the new caps I have. I just noticed the caps I was going to change out in this section (see pic) are bipolar. the caps I have are not. Do I need to order bipolar or can I use what I have and just put them in in the right direction? So it looks like I don't have Caps for this now? all the Caps I ordered were polar.

So can you help me out to clarify on how to read the schematic and order CAP's? If the Cap part number does NOT have a "P" then its a bi-polar? and if it has a "P" then its a polar? If there is + signs on the schematic next to the CAP? schematic part number have BP next tp them but others don't have the BP and yet the cap in the board is clearly a BP CAP, marked right on the side of the CAP?

FYI I have been testing Caps on AWM-082 and a lot are reading high. 10uf's are reading 15.5 and 15.9 4.7uf's are reading 6.2, 3.3's reading 4.3.....

Keep in mind this SPEC-1 has been on over 262,800 hours.

markthefixer · Apr 16, 2022

First, WHO's list did you use?

Did it differentiate between
general purpose electrolytic caps
and low leakage electrolytic caps? (UPW / UKL ?)

bi-polar caps don't have a standard differentiator, usually there are different clues..
you need both the schematic and the BOM from the manual.

even then some will slip by, like AWM-082 C1, C2, C3, C4 because all they say is "ACH-302"
AWM-082 C5 is a stronger clue with "CEA 330M 25NP"

The difference in the symbol is that a NON-electrolytic cap isn't shaded between the foils
while the electrolytic is shaded between the foils and has a plus for polarity position.
The bipolar omits that plus. sometimes they are nice and include a (bp) in parenthesis on the schematic.

That's also how low noise caps are indicated, a parenthesis with NL in it.

ajohnnyz · Apr 16, 2022

markthefixer said:
First, WHO's list did you use?

for the CAP's, Mine, I didnt know about the Bi-Polar thing, Still learning.

markthefixer · Apr 16, 2022

There are existing lists.

list of lists:
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/pioneer-recap-lists-sticky-suggestion.457663/

spec-1 list:
https://www.audiokarma.org/forums/i...-spec-1-repair-and-restoration-thread.445669/

C7 & C8 OF which BOARD? Some are upw, some are ukl, OK, NONE are BIPOLAR.

Checking closer I see that nothing special was done for the NL specified caps using the very special UKL series caps. That is from your C7 & C8 question.

UKL is a special low electronic leakage capacitor. This leakage translates out to BACKGROUND NOISE!!!
Hiss!!!

In the past I had proven the hard way that when they called for NL caps they MEANT NL caps!!
I set up a left / right channel comparison, and the results were profound and startling.
One channel was all upw caps.
The other had UKL when it called for NL caps.

NOISE - background hiss, on the all upw cap channel, the ukl cap channel was quiet.

using the 647-UVP2A2R2MED would be unpleasant...

a bipolar cap is probably noisier than a upw, because a bipolar cap is essentially two caps in a can - back to back. A reversed polarity electrolytic looks like a short circuit, so they can put a + - + sandwich in a can, where one half the sandwich is acting like a cap and the other half of the sandwich is a short. As the polarity reverses, so does the active and shorted zones.

ajohnnyz · Apr 16, 2022

markthefixer said:
There are existing lists.

list of lists:
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/pioneer-recap-lists-sticky-suggestion.457663/

spec-1 list:
https://www.audiokarma.org/forums/i...-spec-1-repair-and-restoration-thread.445669/

on the parts lists the are getting the same volt CAP's I thought it was a good idea to go up on the volts when buying new caps?

C7 & C8 OF which BOARD? Some are upw, some are ukl,

Board is AWM-082B ZYA

I can figure out the CAP's, can you just clarify how to tell what ones are polar or bi-polar.

So this list is for my board?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Filter Amp Board (AWM-082) (The "B" revision of this board has a 1000uF 25v CEA cap in front of the reed relay, unknown cap number.)

AWM-082: C1: 3.3uF 25v BP: 647-UES1H3R3MDM 3.3uF 50v
AWM-082: C2: 3.3uF 25v BP: 647-UES1H3R3MDM 3.3uF 50v
AWM-082: C3: 3.3uF 25v BP: 647-UES1H3R3MDM 3.3uF 50v
AWM-082: C4: 3.3uF 25v BP: 647-UES1H3R3MDM 3.3uF 50v
AWM-082: C5: 33uF 25v BP: 647-UES1E330MPM 33uF 25v
AWM-082: C6: 33uF 25v BP: 647-UES1E330MPM 33uF 25v
AWM-082: C7: 2.2uF 50v CEANL: 647-UKL1H2R2KDDANA 2.2uF 50v (Silk screen polarity is wrong!)
AWM-082: C8: 2.2uF 50v CEANL: 647-UKL1H2R2KDDANA 2.2uF 50v (Silk screen polarity is wrong!)
AWM-082: C9: 4.7uF 35v CEANL: 647-UKL1H4R7KDDANA 4.7uF 50v
AWM-082: C10: 4.7uF 35v CEANL: 647-UKL1H4R7KDDANA 4.7uF 50v
AWM-082: C27: 2.2uF 50v CEANL: 647-UKL1H2R2KDDANA 2.2uF 50v (Silk screen polarity is wrong!)
AWM-082: C28: 2.2uF 50v CEANL: 647-UKL1H2R2KDDANA 2.2uF 50v (Silk screen polarity is wrong!)
AWM-082: C29: 4.7uF 35v CEANL: 647-UKL1H4R7KDDANA 4.7uF 50v
AWM-082: C30: 4.7uF 35v CEANL: 647-UKL1H4R7KDDANA 4.7uF 50v
AWM-082: C31: 10uF 25v CEANL: 647-UKL1E100KDDANA 10uF 25v
AWM-082: C32: 10uF 25v CEANL: 647-UKL1E100KDDANA 10uF 25v
AWM-082: C33: 3.3uF 25v BP: 647-UES1H3R3MDM 3.3uF 50v
AWM-082: C34: 3.3uF 25v BP: 647-UES1H3R3MDM 3.3uF 50v
AWM-082: C35: 3.3uF 25v BP: 647-UES1H3R3MDM 3.3uF 50v
AWM-082: C36: 3.3uF 25v BP: 647-UES1H3R3MDM 3.3uF 50v
AWM-082: C37: 100uF 6.3v CEA: 667-EEU-FM1E101 100uF 25v
AWM-082: C38: 100uF 6.3v CEA: 667-EEU-FM1E101 100uF 25v
AWM-082: C51: 470uF 6.3v CEA: 667-EEU-FM1A471 470uF 10v
AWM-082: C52: 10uF 16v CEA: 667-EEA-FC1E100 10uF 25v
AWM-082: C53: 10uF 16v CEA: 667-EEA-FC1E100 10uF 25v

ajohnnyz · Apr 16, 2022

markthefixer said:
There are existing lists.

list of lists:
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/pioneer-recap-lists-sticky-suggestion.457663/

spec-1 list:
https://www.audiokarma.org/forums/i...-spec-1-repair-and-restoration-thread.445669/

C7 & C8 OF which BOARD? Some are upw, some are ukl, OK, NONE are BIPOLAR.

Checking closer I see that nothing special was done for the NL specified caps using the very special UKL series caps. That is from your C7 & C8 question.

UKL is a special low electronic leakage capacitor. This leakage translates out to BACKGROUND NOISE!!!
Hiss!!!

In the past I had proven the hard way that when they called for NL caps they MEANT NL caps!!
I set up a left / right channel comparison, and the results were profound and startling.
One channel was all upw caps.
The other had UKL when it called for NL caps.

NOISE - background hiss, on the all upw cap channel, the ukl cap channel was quiet.

using the 647-UVP2A2R2MED would be unpleasant...

a bipolar cap is probably noisier than a upw, because a bipolar cap is essentially two caps in a can - back to back. A reversed polarity electrolytic looks like a short circuit, so they can put a + - + sandwich in a can, where one half the sandwich is acting like a cap and the other half of the sandwich is a short. As the polarity reverses, so does the active and shorted zones.

So I have in stock:
647-UKW2A2R2MDD for C7 and C8
647-UFW1H4R7MDD for C9 and C10, C29 and C30
647-UFG1H100MDM1TD for C31 and C32, ETC... Are these ok?

This is why I am asking what ones need to be Bi-Polar as I don't have THEM.

Again I order all audio grade compositors for that board but I did not order any bi-polar as I did not take that into consideration. So I just need to know what CAPs need to be bi-polar and I will order.

markthefixer · Apr 16, 2022

this is as far as I got for your problem....

awf-017 c27 22uf 16v ceanl
awf-017 c28 22uf 16v ceanl

awm-083 C2 1uf 50v ceanl
awm-083 C7 1uf 50v ceanl
awm-083 C8 1uf 50v ceanl
awm-083 C9 1uf 50v ceanl
awm-083 C16 2.2uf 50v ceanl
awm-083 C17 2.2uf 50v ceanl

awm-082 c1 3.3 25v nonpolarized
awm-082 c2 3.3 25v nonpolarized
awm-082 c3 3.3 25v nonpolarized
awm-082 c4 3.3 25v nonpolarized
AWM-082 C5 33uF 25V NONPOLARIZED ERROR IN DOC
AWM-082 C6 33uF 25V NONPOLARIZED ERROR IN DOC
awm-082 c7 2.2 50v ceanl
awm-082 c8 2.2 50v ceanl
awm-082 c9 4.7 35v ceanl
awm-082 c10 4.7 35v ceanl
awm-082 c27 2.2 50v ceanl
awm-082 c28 2.2 50v ceanl
awm-082 c29 4.7 35v ceanl
awm-082 c30 4.7 35v ceanl
awm-082 c31 10 25v ceanl
awm-082 c32 10 25v ceanl
awm-082 c33 3.3 25v nonpolarized
awm-082 c34 3.3 25v nonpolarized
awm-082 c35 3.3 25v nonpolarized
awm-082 c36 3.3 25v nonpolarized

awg-035 C67 2.2 50v ceanl
awg-035 c68 2.2 50v ceanl
awg-035 c87 22 16v ceanl
awg-035 c87 22 16v ceanl
awg-035 c91 2.2 50v ceanl
awg-035 c92 2.2 50v ceanl

You ignore this NL stuff and it's gonna come back and chew on you quite unmercifully.
in other words, from your reactions I see big troubles ahead.

markthefixer · Apr 16, 2022

awf-017 c7 10 25 cea 647-UPW1H100MDD 10 50
awf-017 c8 10 25 cea 647-UPW1H100MDD 10 50
awf-017 c9 470 6 cea 647-UPW1E471MPD 470 16
awf-017 c10 470 6 cea 647-UPW1E471MPD 470 16
awf-017 c15 3.3 63 cea 647-UPW2A3R3MDD 3.3 100
awf-017 c16 3.3 63 cea 647-UPW2A3R3MDD 3.3 100
awf-017 c27 22 16 ceanl 647-UKL1H220MEDANA 22 50
awf-017 c28 22 16 ceanl 647-UKL1H220MEDANA 22 50

awm-083 C2 1 50 ceanl 647-UKL1H010KDDANA 1 50 $0.00? ecq?
awm-083 c5 4.7 50 cea 647-UPW1H4R7MDD 4.7 50
awm-083 C7 1 50 ceanl 647-UKL1H010KDDANA 1 50 $0.00 ecq?
awm-083 C8 1 50 ceanl 647-UKL1H010KDDANA 1 50 ecq?
awm-083 C9 1 50 ceanl 647-UKL1H010KDDANA 1 50 ecq?
awm-083 c14 100 25 cea 647-UPW1H101MPD 100 50
awm-083 c15 100 25 cea 647-UPW1H101MPD 100 50
awm-083 C16 2.2 50 ceanl 647-UKL1H2R2MDAANA 2.2 50 ecq?
awm-083 C17 2.2 50 ceanl 647-UKL1H2R2MDAANA 2.2 50 ecq?
awm-083 c18 2.2 63 cea 647-UPW2A2R2MDD 2.2 100

awm-082 c1 3.3 25 nonpolarized 647-UES1H3R3MDM 3.3 50
awm-082 c2 3.3 25 nonpolarized 647-UES1H3R3MDM 3.3 50
awm-082 c3 3.3 25 nonpolarized 647-UES1H3R3MDM 3.3 50
awm-082 c4 3.3 25 nonpolarized 647-UES1H3R3MDM 3.3 50
awm-082 C5 33 25 cea non-polar missing error in doc
awm-082 C6 33 25 cea non-polar missing error in doc
awm-082 c7 2.2 50 ceanl 647-UKL1H2R2MDAANA 2.2 50 ecq? silkscreen wrong
awm-082 c8 2.2 50 ceanl 647-UKL1H2R2MDAANA 2.2 50 ecq? silkscreen wrong
awm-082 c9 4.7 35 ceanl 647-UKL1H4R7KDDANA 4.7 50
awm-082 c10 4.7 35 ceanl 647-UKL1H4R7KDDANA 4.7 50
awm-082 c27 2.2 50 ceanl 647-UKL1H2R2MDAANA 2.2 50 ecq? silkscreen wrong
awm-082 c28 2.2 50 ceanl 647-UKL1H2R2MDAANA 2.2 50 ecq? silkscreen wrong
awm-082 c29 4.7 35 ceanl 647-UKL1H4R7KDDANA 4.7 50
awm-082 c30 4.7 35 ceanl 647-UKL1H4R7KDDANA 4.7 50
awm-082 c31 10 25 ceanl 647-UKL1H100KDDANA 10 50
awm-082 c32 10 25 ceanl 647-UKL1H100KDDANA 10 50
awm-082 c33 3.3 25 nonpolarized 647-UES1H3R3MDM 3.3 50
awm-082 c34 3.3 25 nonpolarized 647-UES1H3R3MDM 3.3 50
awm-082 c35 3.3 25 nonpolarized 647-UES1H3R3MDM 3.3 50
awm-082 c36 3.3 25 nonpolarized 647-UES1H3R3MDM 3.3 50
awm-082 c37 100 6 cea 647-UPW1A101MDD 100 10
awm-082 c38 100 6 cea 647-UPW1A101MDD 100 10
awm-082 c51 470 6.3 cea 647-UPW1E471MPD 470 16
awm-082 c52 10 16 cea 647-UPW1E101MED 100 25
awm-082 c53 10 16 cea 647-UPW1E101MED 100 25

awg-035 C67 2.2 50 ceanl 647-UKL1H2R2MDAANA 2.2 50 ecq?
awg-035 c68 2.2 50 ceanl 647-UKL1H2R2MDAANA 2.2 50 ecq?
awg-035 c69 10 25 cea 647-UPW1H100MDD 10 50
awg-035 c70 10 25 cea 647-UPW1H100MDD 10 50
awg-035 c75 220 6 cea 647-UPW1A221MED 220 10
awg-035 c76 220 6 cea 647-UPW1A221MED 220 10
awg-035 c83 3.3 63 cea 647-UPW2A3R3MDD 3.3 100
awg-035 c84 3.3 63 cea 647-UPW2A3R3MDD 3.3 100
awg-035 c87 22 16 ceanl 647-UKL1H220MEDANA 22 50
awg-035 c87 22 16 ceanl 647-UKL1H220MEDANA 22 50
awg-035 c91 2.2 50 ceanl 647-UKL1H2R2MDAANA 2.2 50 ecq?
awg-035 c92 2.2 50 ceanl 647-UKL1H2R2MDAANA 2.2 50 ecq?
awg-035 c93 10 25 cea 647-UPW1H100MDD 10 50
awg-035 c94 10 25 cea 647-UPW1H100MDD 10 50

awr-094 c1 100 63 cea 647-UPW2A101MHD 100 100
awr-094 c2 100 63 cea 647-UPW2A101MHD 100 100
awr-094 c5 220 35 cea 647-UPW1V221MPD 220 35
awr-094 c6 1000 50 cea 647-UPW1H102MHD 1000 50
awr-094 c7 1000 50 cea 647-UPW1H102MHD 1000 50
awr-094 c10 100 50 cea 647-UPW1H101MPD 100 50
awr-094 c11 220 25 cea 647-UPW1V221MPD 220 35
awr-094 c12 330 25 cea 647-UPW1E331MPD 330 25

awx-091 C8 1000 80 ach-053 647-UPW2A102MHD 1000 100
awx-091 C9 1000 80 ach-053 647-UPW2A102MHD 1000 100
awx-091 C10 1000 50 cea 647-UPW1H102MHD 1000 50

ajohnnyz · Apr 16, 2022

markthefixer said:
First, WHO's list did you use?

Did it differentiate between
general purpose electrolytic caps
and low leakage electrolytic caps? (UPW / UKL ?)

bi-polar caps don't have a standard differentiator, usually there are different clues..
you need both the schematic and the BOM from the manual.

even then some will slip by, like AWM-082 C1, C2, C3, C4 because all they say is "ACH-302"
AWM-082 C5 is a stronger clue with "CEA 330M 25NP"

The difference in the symbol is that a NON-electrolytic cap isn't shaded between the foils
while the electrolytic is shaded between the foils and has a plus for polarity position.
The bipolar omits that plus. sometimes they are nice and include a (bp) in parenthesis on the schematic.

That's also how low noise caps are indicated, a parenthesis with NL in it.

View attachment 2541070

I wish I could see al that like you see it

markthefixer · Apr 16, 2022

post 54 calls out all ten of the non-polarized, post #55 has 8 of those ten part numbers.

the missing two part numbers are : c5 c6 647-UES1H330MPM1TD 33up nonpolar 25v

the rest ...

ajohnnyz · Apr 16, 2022

markthefixer said:
post 54 calls out all ten of the non-polarized, post #55 has 8 of those ten part numbers.

the missing two part numbers are : c5 c6 647-UES1H330MPM1TD 33up nonpolar 25v

the rest ...

ok, I will look, thanks, I will look at the part numbers. But I trying to learn and I need to know how to look things up. Again, I am not used to relying on anyone's help for anything so you have to understand.

So again the NEW part numbers I have for those, are these ok? We are missing something in are post. Yes I needed to know what one were bi-polar and I finally got that answer. But I also supplied these part numbers for those several post ago. We are both guilty of editing post and I get that it does lead to some confusion.

c5 and c6 - 647-UEP1H330MPD I can order the other part numbers I am just trying to learn..
c1-c4 - 647-UDB1H3R3MPM

And what does "ceanl" and "cea" mean?

and looking at the board on the circuit side I do see + and - on the capacitors and that's not there on the bi-polar ones. so I can figure that out looking at the board.

So let me know if these are the only Bi-polar? that's all I am trying to figure out. I will order 10 each.

and again I have this in stock, (see pic)

Also I am changing all the main transistors on that board, I have replacements for the 2SC1885 and the 2SA912 but what about the 2SC945 and the 2SC1166?

markthefixer · Apr 16, 2022

This is getting out of order, and so quickly...

Read that spec-1 thread I pointed you at. He did exactly what you want to do. Capacitors, trimpots(?), transistors etc...

from the Pioneer Tuning Fork Service Guide series, which is pinned on the Forum Page near the top
quite frankly, a good use of your time would be to go through that. maybe not in depth at first, but along the way you will remember
where to look for deeper information.

markthefixer · Apr 16, 2022

there are just two needed bipolar capacitor component values, both in stock:

two 647-UES1H330MPM1TD

eight 647-UES1H3R3MDM

the big list I posted a short while ago has about half of them either unavailable or out of stock.

you post such deceptively (not on purpose!! I know that !!!) simple sounding questions, where the answers are definitely not simple.

and as I get an answer ready to post , I find another bowling ball headed :yikes:

for the house of cards....

Also I am changing all the main transistors on that board, I have replacements for the 2SC1885 and the 2SA912 but what about the 2SC945 and the 2SC1166?

ajohnnyz · Apr 16, 2022

markthefixer said:
there are just two needed bipolar capacitor component values, both in stock:

two 647-UES1H330MPM1TD

eight 647-UES1H3R3MDM

the big list I posted a short while ago has about half of them either unavailable or out of stock.

you post such deceptively (not on purpose!! I know that !!!) simple sounding questions, where the answers are definitely not simple.

and as I get an answer ready to post , I find another bowling ball headed for the house of cards....

Here are the BP/NP and the NL caps I needed to order. I ordered 10 each.

For C1-C4 and C33-C36 BP/NP in stock 647-UES1H3R3MDM
For C5 and C6 BP/NP in stock 647-UES1H330MPM1TD
For C7 and C8, C27 and C28 NL in stock - 647-UKL2A2R2KDD
C9 and C10 and C29 and C30 NL in stock - 647-UKL1H4R7MDD1AA

I know more about caps now, Thanks.

I would have thought Audio Grade was better then (NL) Low Noise, but again I was wrong.

ajohnnyz · Apr 17, 2022

and on the "PARTS LIST" Pioneer SPEC 1 repair and restoration thread! | Audiokarma Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
they are using didfferant transisters then I have. I was told to use:
Q1 and Q2 - KSC1845F
Q3 and Q4 - KSA992F
So this kind of thing is very confusing specs are no where near the same on these.

From the forums list:
Q1: 2SC1885: 512-KSC2383YTA
Q2: 2SC1885: 512-KSC2383YTA
Q3: 2SA912: 512-KSA1013YBU
Q4: 2SA912: 512-KSA1013YBU
Q5: 2SC1885: 512-KSC2383YTA
Q6: 2SC1885: 512-KSC2383YTA
Q7: 2SC1885: 512-KSC2383YTA
Q8: 2SC1885: 512-KSC2383YTA
Q9: 2SC1885: 512-KSC2383YTA
Q10: 2SC1885: 512-KSC2383YTA
Q11: 2SA912: 512-KSA1013YBU
Q12: 2SA912: 512-KSA1013YBU
Q15: 2SC1166: 512-KSC2690AYS
Q16: 2SC945: 512-KSC2383YTA
Q17: 2SC945: 512-KSC2383YTA

markthefixer · Apr 17, 2022

he used them (in 2012 and I ain't heard any complaints),

they're cheap.

they're in stock.

get em.

SPEC-1, Lower output on the right channel

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