Speed issue dual 1019

[Hexode]

Hi guys,
Sorry I'm new and already post an issue. I am pretty desperate.
I recently bought a 1019 on Leboncoin, a craigslist-line website.
Worked fine but I quickly noticed the pitch went off quickly. I had to adjust the pitch and then eventually with the pitch all the way up it wouldnt run up to speed.

I had it checked by a professional who serviced it and said it was no running fine after a relube.
When I took it back home and played records the speed was off still.
I brought it back to the man who looked at it and said he adjusted it and that it should run fine now.
Took it back to my place yesterday... Guess what ? Not up to the pitch.

Now I read lots of threads about it and phoned the guy who was supposed to fix it. He says I should unscrew the screw on the needle that drives the idler wheel, which I did. I then measured the rpms with an app that is known for it's good results.
The thing is at first I manage to set the speed at 33.3 rpms with the control knob at the center position (between + and -), but it quickly looses it's speed down to 32.5 or 6 and then slower. As turn the pitch up, it goes to 34 or so, and then goes back to 32.4 or less. And each time I stop and start the turntable again the speed is not the same.

I feel like the needle is too low for the idler wheel to be driven correctly, but I can't lower the idler wheel because the little screw at it's top is broken.

I would love any suggestion before I give another dude 130 euros forEuros for not fixing my turntable. The pitch is just too off and I can't appreciate my records it drives me absolutely nuts.

Thank you very much from a French frog.
Hex.

 

[olddude55]

I have to let my own 1019 warm up a bit before it'll play at the correct speed, even after cleaning and re-oiling the motor bearings.

 

[Hexode]

I have to let my own 1019 warm up a bit before it'll play at the correct speed, even after cleaning and re-oiling the motor bearings.

Thanks for your answer. I'm currently warming it up at 78 rpm for half an hour to see if it tells me something. I'll keep you updated. Also I will post pictures if it helps (and if it's allowed).
One question though : the needle, that can be taken off, can be put all the way down in it's hole, or just layed not all the way down.
When it's all the way down, even with the screw loose the turntable never reaches 33.3 RPM (it's more like 30.9), but when it's layed gently in its socket, so that the needle is a bit higher (and the idler wheel is in contact with it a bit lower), it runs faster for a bit before slowing down.

So is it supposed to be put all the way down in it's socket ? Should I adjust the height of this needle maybe ? So many possibilities...
Thanks

 

[olddude55]

It's possible that the motor pulley (needle in the translation) isn't fully seated on motor's drive pin.

 

[Hexode]

It's possible that the motor pulley (needle in the translation) isn't fully seated on motor's drive pin.

Ah yes the pulley thank you. okay so I should definitely sit it down its socket I suppose and then set the screw lose to gain speed or screw it up to slow it down. I'll keep that in mind.

 

[Hexode]

Good morning. I did the test yesterday and had my TT run at 78 rpm for half an hour. Then I put it in 33 RPM mode and it wouldn't top 31.09. I tried many times to adjust the screw and the height (without touching the idler wheel tho) of the pulley so that the idler wheel would touch the pulley in different locations, but the platter was never able to be fast enough.
One time I had it run at 33.3 rpm with the pitch knob set on neutral (between + and -) but within 20 seconds it would drop to 31.2 or so.
I feel like maybe the idler wheel slips on the pulley? The process started to make a tiny little bit of noise as well while running, probably because I touched the idler wheel and the pulley with my hands (clean) and had no piece of cloth and alcool to clean it...

Still, any thoughts ? Why does the platter loses speed and cannot have a consistent speed? It only seems consistent at 31 or so, never at 33 rpm.
When set on 45, it is only consistent around 41 or 42 rpm...

Thanks!

 

[olddude55]

Are you using an actual strobe disc or a smart phone app? The smart phone apps aren't very accurate.
Some other things to try: Scrub the drive surface on the bottom of the platter with steel wool until it's clean. Use sandpaper on the circumference of the idler wheel.
Make sure the idler pulley on the end of the motor shaft is clean and free of any oil.

 

[Hexode]

Are you using an actual strobe disc or a smart phone app? The smart phone apps aren't very accurate.
Some other things to try: Scrub the drive surface on the bottom of the platter with steel wool until it's clean. Use sandpaper on the circumference of the idler wheel.
Make sure the idler pulley on the end of the motor shaft is clean and free of any oil.

Thank you for your reply.
I have a strobe but I don't use it because I'm note sure how to use it properly, and if I'll be able to catch when it slows down (as the professional who looked at my TT said it was running fine...). I'm very sure that it's not working ok because :
- My records are actually slow compared to youtube or spotify or even CDs
- I tried the app I'm using on my neighbour's TT, and it turned at 33.2 RPM constantly.

Thank you for your suggestions. Thing is I have no equipment so I don't know with what type of cloth I can use to clean the idler pulley. I'll buy some sandpaper for the circumference of the idler wheel and will try to scrub the drive surface on the bootom of the platter. But I don't really know where exactly this part is : is it supposed to be driven only by the tiny idler wheel?!

I've looked everywhere on this forum and I found this interesting suggestion :

"With the platter off the idler wheel is having difficulty spinning, let alone trying to move a 7lb platter. It really seems like the size of the idler wheel is affecting the movement. So either its the size or the idler spring. Looking at the idler spring its not bent, or stretched in any way that I can see. But the mechanism that that spring helps to pull against is the one that pulls the idler wheel into the pulley motor. I think. So it would make sense that the spring isn't under as much tension if the wheel is smaller. I just don't see how it worked before I removed the motor and doesn't work after. It all seems like an alignment issue to me not a mechanical failure.
Try improvising a rubber band in place of the idler spring, or reduce the length of the idler spring by a few coils.
I'm a Lenco guy, and the idler wheel springs are a fairly common ailment due to their age. A rubber band can be twisted to cause it to get tighter, or looser, so they make a good basis for experimenting."

The man had the same problem as me, and he fixed it by removing a few coils to the spring that makes the idler wheel touch the motor pulley. Does it make sense for you ? Maybe the tension between the idler wheel and the pulley is not strong enoug.
Another possibility is really adjusting the height of the pulley, but I can't seem to find how to do it...

 

[muovimies]

The pulley on the motor shaft has a small screw on it. Loosen that enough so that you can raise the pulley, then tighten the screw and try if you can get correct speed. If it's still slow, raise it a bit further.

While your at it and have removed the platter, try adjusting the speed dial - you should see the idler wheel rise higher when you turn the speed towards + and lower when you turn the speed dial towards -

The speed dial works by adjusting the height of the idler wheel, if I recall correctly the whole idler assembly moves up and down. It should stay on the height you set it to.

Idler wheel size doesn't affect speed.

 

[Hexode]

Thank you muovimies for your reply as well!
I've tried countless times yesterday to losen the screw on the pully (on the side). The problem is that when I raise the pulley and tighten the screw the pulley isn't free to rotate anymore. And when I losen it a bit the pulley falls almost all the way down in its socket. I KNOW I'm pretty close to finding the right setup, it seems to be right here !
I will check tonight if the speed dial moves the whole idler assembly or not.

Another possibility (again) with the rubberband trick : maybe the idler is worn out and the rubber is too hard? I'll try other things before, but I found this, too, on another forum :

"There is a misconception that all these parts force the idler to work the platter. That's incorrect as these, again, especially spring 125, only bring the idler to contact the speed pulley and platter. The actual "bite" into the idler and subsequent drive speed “attained within one revolution” as the original doc state, is due to the geometry of the three players: speed pulley, idler and platter.
If we look at the positioning of the three, we find that the idler, (turning anti or counter-clockwise,) interfaces with both pulley and platter turning clockwise--- eventually (one rotation).
Looking into the power sequence, we have initially, a turning motor and a still platter. The idler first comes into contact with the turning motor pulley but is confronted with an impobile platter on the other side. The motor keeps "shovelling" the idler surface, which now has to compress, pulling the idler even tighter into the pulley. Eventually it has enough energy because of this inward pull, to get the platter turning. As soon as the inertia is overcome, the idler has a more relaxed circumference and simply keeps the platter going. Now the platter is driven by the gyroscopic effect and relies on the motor only to feed that effect. A very good analogy of that relationship is the bite of driving wheels on a dragster car and the road it grips. I.E the more “pedal to the metal”, the more the car hunkers down.
So, if the mechanical parts are free moving, motor turns and pulley is clean, the most likely miscreant is the idler. Any idler that is x years old (depends on climatic conditions etc.), the rubber or subtleness of the idler, just "refuse to be drawn in" at the platter's inertial change from standstill to motion- there simply is no "biting" into the idler because of the hardened exterior surface, even if it looks still ok. With a lighter platter it will most likely work.
To check the idler, take an appropriate sized / wide rubber band, swing it over the idler circumference, creating a sort of vulcanizing effect. The pulley/rubberband will now bite into the idler surface.
Just remember to check for bends pulls and a very clean speed pulley. Obviously motor does need attention to keep it from rattling etc. and to get a consistant speed or good wow and flutter figures."

 

[muovimies]

Thank you muovimies for your reply as well!
I've tried countless times yesterday to losen the screw on the pully (on the side). The problem is that when I raise the pulley and tighten the screw the pulley isn't free to rotate anymore. And when I losen it a bit the pulley falls almost all the way down in its socket. I KNOW I'm pretty close to finding the right setup, it seems to be right here !

I'm not sure if I understood you correctly, but the pulley isn't supposed to rotate on the motor shaft of course - that's why the screw is there, to lock the pulley to the shaft so that it's the motor shaft that rotates and not the pulley. If the pulley is slipping on the shaft, you lose platter speed. That screw should always be tight except when you losen it to adjust things. Also in my previous post I made a typo - when rising speed, the idler wheel moves lower, which is what you accomplish also by rising the pulley on the motor shaft.

 

[Hexode]

I'm not sure if I understood you correctly, but the pulley isn't supposed to rotate on the motor shaft of course - that's why the screw is there, to lock the pulley to the shaft so that it's the motor shaft that rotates and not the pulley. If the pulley is slipping on the shaft, you lose platter speed. That screw should always be tight except when you losen it to adjust things. Also in my previous post I made a typo - when rising speed, the idler wheel moves lower, which is what you accomplish also by rising the pulley on the motor shaft.

Well now I feel reaaaally stupid. I must say I'm a total newbie but I could have least have figured this out. BUT ! Yesterday I tried tightening it up but then the platter wouldn't move freely. So I figured the pulley wasn't supposed to be tightened up.
Furthermore the fellow I paid to "fix" my TT told me to losen the screw, saying "he had tightened it because the platter was moving too fast" (and I brought him the TT because it wasn't moving fast enough...), so I thought I just had to losen it.

Anyway I'll try as soon as I get back home to losen the screw, adjust the height of the pulley and then tighten it again. Only question is : is it normal that the platter isn't moving freely when I tighten the screw ? Maybe I just tightened it when the height of the pulley was completely off, blocking the platter...

Thank you very much both of you for the time you put to help me despite the fact that I'm new. I appreciate very much, as "professionals" in Paris just don't take time to listen to my issues. Here, first you pay, then you pray it's fixed. They don't wanna discuss, they're always right ! I had issues with an amplifier 3 months ago, I had to come back 2 times to the shop because they wouldn't fix the problem after they serviced it. After I insisted they made it work but it was tough!
Cheers, I'll keep you updated on how it goes!

 

[muovimies]

Anyway I'll try as soon as I get back home to losen the screw, adjust the height of the pulley and then tighten it again. Only question is : is it normal that the platter isn't moving freely when I tighten the screw ? Maybe I just tightened it when the height of the pulley was completely off, blocking the platter...

The only contact the motor pulley has with the platter, is through the idler wheel. Or at least should be - if you raise the pulley too high, it's possible it gets in contact with the underside of the platter. You can loosen the screw, put the pulley as far down as it will go and then raise it maybe a few mm from that and check where you are at speedwise. If the speed is still too slow, raise the pulley again a bit and check. The 1019 motor takes about 30 minutes to reach it's final operating temperature - before that it runs a bit slower. I suspect it would depend a bit from motor to motor at this point in their lifecycle, even if the motor is serviced/relubed.

Btw. do the automatic functions on the table work as they should? Whenever you have an "issue" with these old changer Duals, first thing to do is lock the arm on it's rest and then push the start switch, which will make the table "cycle" through the automatic functions and should reset it on the 'default' state. If the start switch doesn't want to move, try to rotate the platter gently by hand until you hear and feel a 'click' and the platter starts to spin more freely - that means the cycle is complete. If something is stuck and doesn't want to move, never force anything, you'll just break things that way.

These are very well built, but also quite complex turntables and when the factory lube eventually dries out after decades, they take some manual labour and relubing to get back to good working condition. It's not easy stuff for a beginner, especially if you are not handy / mechanically inclined. It needs a certain kind of mindset to be able to understand and follow mechanical things like this. It's something you can learn, but at first it can be like trying to read a foreign language which doesn't even use the same kind of letters you are used to

 

[Hexode]

My dear dear friend you made me so happy. I just came back from work, checked if the idler moved up and down while adjusting the pitch which it did, I set up the height of the pulley just right so that at + and - it would have room to go up and down the pulley. Tightened up the screw and BOOM !! It works like a charm.

I cannot thank you both enough for your kind answers. After three one hour trips to that guy supposed to fix my TT I was beginning to feel crazy!
God bless, I'll be sure to be around if anyone has the same problem. And I will haunt this forum for a while

Much love from France !

 

[likebike23]

Deleted

 

[muovimies]

My dear dear friend you made me so happy. I just came back from work, checked if the idler moved up and down while adjusting the pitch which it did, I set up the height of the pulley just right so that at + and - it would have room to go up and down the pulley. Tightened up the screw and BOOM !! It works like a charm.

I cannot thank you both enough for your kind answers. After three one hour trips to that guy supposed to fix my TT I was beginning to feel crazy!
God bless, I'll be sure to be around if anyone has the same problem. And I will haunt this forum for a while

Much love from France !

That's awesome news and you're welcome of course and congrats for getting it adjusted If it's in good condition and working properly, it's still a good turntable. Just different compromises than most modern turntables.

 

[Hexode]

Ikebike23 thank you too for the comment you wrote, I see you deleted it after I fixe my TT.
So little update for today : the TT is running way better even if I notice the pulley must slip from time to time : when I let it it 33.3 rpm it stays like this, but when I switch to 45 it gets to 44.8 or so, and then back to 33 RPM position it has slowed down a little.
I think that worst case scenario I should change the little screw on the side of the pulley, or change the pulley. Still good for now!

Yes I enjoy the sound, I run this on a Grundig V1000 amplifier and Magnat speakers (german, 1980s). Sounds great!

 

[zdenekh]

Have a nice day
I have a similar problem. My Dual 1019 after relubrication has this problem. The platter spins after starting the automatic mode, the tonearm lands on the LP record, but after a while it loses speed and stops. I cleaned everything, idler, pulley, platter, but to no avail. Can someone please help me? Thank you in advance.
Zdenek (Czech Republic)