Stanton 681EEE New Cartridge Equivalents

[patient_ot]

I have an Ortofon 2m black on my Clearaudio performance dc turntable. I love it to say the least.

On my secondary system, i have a stanton 681eee with a 68es stylus. It sounds good but nowhere near the detail of the Ortofon 2m black. This has made me wonder about the Jico "Shibata" styus as a relacement for my Stanton 681eee cart.
...i know that the differences in the cartridges and tables are fairly significant and that they wil also affect sound but if decide on the jico shibata stylus, i should get a sound that is more similar to my Ortofon 2m black than the 681eee with 680es styus.... is this correct?

They won't sound the same. They are very different cartridges. The Jico Shibata (I have one) can be very good for what it is but it's not the same as OEM Stanton styli as those were nude and the Jico is bonded. If you want to up the performance of the Stanton you'll need to send it out for a custom retip job, which won't be cheap. It still won't sound the same as a 2M Black because the designs and sonic signatures of the two cartridges are quite different. A better stylus will give you a little more detail though, especially if your old stylus is worn.

For now my Stanton sits in reserve until I can get a retip job on the OEM stylus. Although I did enjoy the Jico, in the end it wasn't enough for me - I will admit I am very picky though.

 

[cafe latte]

Nothing really sounds like a 680/681/XV-15. There are a lot of good carts out there but if you love the Stanton sound the best thing you can do outside of high priced OEM styli is buy the best Jico you can afford or do a custom retip job. I tried the Jico route and although I found it quite satisfying overall I crave more and will be getting a custom retip when funds allow.

Hmm not sure, Nag Mp-500 is a similar presentation IMO but more detailed but better stylus too.
Chris

 

[honestabe316]

I really ike the resentation of the 681eee with the 68es styus.... i really like the detail i get from the 2m black too....
The problem i have is that i bought the technics table 5 years ago with the stanton and used it for 3 years before getting the clearaudio table with the 2m black cart. I have no clue how much useable life is left on the 680es stylus. I dont hear distortion or anything like that but it sounds very blah compared to the 2m black.
I just bought a rogue audio sphinx hybrid amp last week and thats what my technics is now hooked up too.... so i know that my system is good.... the technics table runs perfectly.... thats why im feeling that the stylus might need to be changed or retipped (as was suggested). Im probably going to order a 200x magnifying glass or lens so that i can see if the stylus is on its last legs.... if it still looks good, i may have to consider other options

 

[Brian Tambe]

I have an Ortofon 2m black on my Clearaudio performance dc turntable. I love it to say the least.

On my secondary system, i have a stanton 681eee with a 68es stylus. It sounds good but nowhere near the detail of the Ortofon 2m black. This has made me wonder about the Jico "Shibata" styus as a relacement for my Stanton 681eee cart.
...i know that the differences in the cartridges and tables are fairly significant and that they wil also affect sound but if decide on the jico shibata stylus, i should get a sound that is more similar to my Ortofon 2m black than the 681eee with 680es styus.... is this correct?

Yes , absolutely , the Shibata stylus will track in the record groove with a narrow groove pattern and longer in the record groove resulting in less tracking force thusly requiring a track force of approximately 3 grams vs 2 grams per elliptical stylus designs. I had a Stanton 681 EEE Cartridge ( purchased brand new in 1980 ) and it sounded very nice. I recently went to the new VM line from audio technica purchasing the new released in the US in 2017 the Audio Technica VM 740ML ( Micro Line ) stylus and the Micro Line tracks with ease at 2 grams and the sound is absolutely amazing. The advantage of the micro line stylus is a more precise tracking of the record groove with virtually zero wear on the stylus itself if set correctly on your tone arm. The MicroLine™ stylus almost exactly duplicates the shape of the cutting stylus used to produce the original master disc from which records are made. This enables it to track portions of the groove other styli simply cannot reach. The AT 740ML allows the Micro line , shibata and the special line contact stylus to be used with the same cartridge giving the versatility to hear the benefits of each stylus design.

 

[honestabe316]

Thanks for responding.... the AT 740ML seems very good according to reviews and manf data. Considering that i have the 681eee cartridge already it makes more sense to me to go with a shibata replacement. I have the ortofon 2M Black on my primary table and am absolutely pleased with its sound. I love the detail that the shibata can pull out of the grooves...

Im hoping to get some reviews of any of the shibata replacent stylus that will fit my 681eee cartridge and if anyone knows of any places where deals may be found on one

 

[cg123]

Yeah, I was really proud of myself years ago for investing in the Stanton when I only had a college student budget to work with.

I know this is a two year old response but did pretty much the same thing. My turntable in those days was a manual Pioneer PL12D but I bought a 681EEE for it. The records I played then (1970's) I still have today and they still sound pretty damn good.

 

[Wolfie62]

Reading through this thread (even though its an old one), I find it almost impossible to believe anyone would compare a Stanton 681EEE/Pickering XV15 to a Shure M97xE. Seriously? But there were other good comparisons in here.

 

[Balifly]

Reading through this thread (even though its an old one), I find it almost impossible to believe anyone would compare a Stanton 681EEE/Pickering XV15 to a Shure M97xE. Seriously? But there were other good comparisons in here.

They were both very close technically as far as the published specification seem to indicate.

Is there some reason why they should not be view/judge in the same light?

 

[Wolfie62]

I’m always amazed by the number of people who will defend an audio product by saying that they don’t listen to specs. Those same people very often defend a product when it is compared to another product (here, cartridges) by throwing up specifications.

I have both the M97xE (2 of them, actually, 1 sealed the other less than 20 hours on it, 2001 and 2005 vintage) and the Stanton 681EEE and the Pickering XV15 (1200E).

The Shure has a nasty rolled off treble, which is well documented. The Stanton was flat, calibrated (mine is) and has no treble roll off. That’s just for starters.

Listening, there is no comparison to be made, unless that comparison is limited to less than 1,500 Hz.

 

[Evonimos]

Just for the record, i might add some links to needledrops i made with both Shure M97xE (oem stylus) and Stanton 680EE (oem stylus).
So that you can do the comparison if you want.

They do not sound identical but they do share a similar (warmer) tonal character.

Stanton however sounds better to my ears.
It has better soundstage and impact and is generally more fun to listen to.

 

[Wolfie62]

This post was originally asking for a modern equivalent to The Stanton 681EEE. Since the M97xE is no longer made, I can throw this in with good conscience:

I have an arsenal of Shure carts. The M97HE is a good match for the EEE. Unlike the M97xE, the Era IV M97 does have the staging, flat FR, dynamic and lively response, imaging, and character that competes neck and neck in all areas. One play with your “go to” record, comparing the M97HE with the “dumbed down” M97xE, and you’ll give up on that solid core coil xE. I’ll even go so far as to say this: choose your aftermarket styli, and do the same comparison, you’ll still give the nod to the Era IV. No contest.

Now, compare specs for both M97s. Virtually identical. But those specs don’t reflect the differences that micro-laminated pole pieces make when actually tracing grooves.

 

[Wolfie62]

Points are well taken, but the M97xE body, laminated or not will deliver the goods with the better styli. I’ve tested mine with the 111E and others and it sounds great, all the positive attributes and it also scores high on measuring equipment.

Of course the additional issue with the M97xE body is whether you will get to keep your left channel for long or not. The left channel has a tendency to die for unknown reasons.

Sorry, but you’re just plain wrong.

I have the 111HE, the 110, the 104, the M95, M97HE, as well as the V15V, the V15 Type IV, the V15VxMR, and the M91, 93, M92, M70, M75 and clones. So, when I’m comparing the M97xE to the M97HE, it’s a side by side comparison. Original styli, and a host of aftermarket styli.

Most that tell me how “great” the M97xE is, have nothing to compare it to. The M97HE IS the proper Shure cart to compare the lowly swan song M97xE to. Side by side, just no comparison. There is a reason the M97xE sold for so little money. For every stylus that folks bring up that “fixes”, or really makes the M97xE “sing”, makes the Era IV excel.

 

[Evonimos]

Here are the two files (Shure M97xE vs Stanton 680EE):

Cartridge A: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1InwsSGFciGkVnall7SeumbZTyN-GbUYg/view?usp=sharing
Cartridge B: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1o1nZsXn0lXDbq-YaP0UQqMuOzGGrPYwL/view?usp=sharing

I won't name them for now, just for fun.

You should try to identify them by listening.
There's 50% chance of getting it right, so it's easy!

 

[Evonimos]

There is a reason the M97xE sold for so little money.

If you are implying that Shure M97xE was selling for not a lot of money, because it sounded dull you are wrong.
Shure M92E that sold for a lot less (30 bucks or less), sounded better than the M97xE.

They don't fix prices like that.
They fix prices according to overall business policy.
And lately they had a policy of selling all their phono products for peanuts (comparatively speaking).
I couldn't understand their reasons behind that pricing policy though.

 

[Wolfie62]

Shure cut a LOT of costs in the M97xE. That’s why it sold for very little money, FROM ITS INTRODUCTION. Not just later in it’s life.

The M92 cost less than the M97xE because it cost even LESS to produce. And yes, companies establish prices by that all the time.

The M97xE reduced costs by:

Borrowing tooling that already existed since 1982 or longer for body shell, cart mount, pin mount, stylus grip and dynamic stabilizer;

Reducing quality of the cantilever, stylus tip, coil pole design, and reducing quality checks and moving production to Mexico;

Reducing performance that relied upon higher quality components for better and more consistent sound quality.

End result: Quality problems in manufacturing and a falling response curve by 8 dB, 210 Hz - 10 kHz.

 

[Wolfie62]

Here are the two files (Shure M97xE vs Stanton 680EE):

Cartridge A: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1InwsSGFciGkVnall7SeumbZTyN-GbUYg/view?usp=sharing
Cartridge B: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1o1nZsXn0lXDbq-YaP0UQqMuOzGGrPYwL/view?usp=sharing

I won't name them for now, just for fun.

You should try to identify them by listening.
There's 50% chance of getting it right, so it's easy!

Sorry, but playback of digital files has limitations. Especially for critical comparisons.

Is that the 680EE, or 681EEE? Original question is for the 681EEE. Which stylus? Original, calibration Standard? How many hours on the stylus? Same alignment for both?

 

[Wolfie62]

This debate has been raging since the 1970s. Shure is very smooth, controlled and laid back—almost as if afraid to offend. Stanton is very dynamic, punchy, and lively, but with a ruler flat FR. This was the case with the V15 series.

No, this debate has NOT been raging since the 1970s. This is about the Shure M97xE. This cart was not around in the 1970s, and would have failed to compete in the 1970s. The reviewers would have taken issue with the rolled off response, and it not competing with other Shure carts, or competition in its price category. The xE fails to compete with the 1979 M97HE. The M97HE got stellar reviews against not only the V15V and Type IV, But also against other carts from other mfrs in higher price categories.

 

[Wolfie62]

Here are the two files (Shure M97xE vs Stanton 680EE):

Cartridge A: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1InwsSGFciGkVnall7SeumbZTyN-GbUYg/view?usp=sharing
Cartridge B: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1o1nZsXn0lXDbq-YaP0UQqMuOzGGrPYwL/view?usp=sharing

I won't name them for now, just for fun.

You should try to identify them by listening.
There's 50% chance of getting it right, so it's easy!

I can’t tell them apart very well from my iPhone. So as long as I play both carts from my phone, they do sound a lot alike!

I do know this, in my listening room, there is no contest between my 681EEE and my M97xE! Loss of detail from the xE, in a major way.

 

[Wolfie62]

I was talking generically between the house sounds of Shure and Stanton in general. Pretty certain I stated that that involved the V15. Let me go back and look.

Yep!

You might have been referring to house sounds. But that’s not what you said, nor how you presented it.



You sandwiched that comment between quoting about the M97xE and then discussing the M97xE, which has no place in the comparison of 1970s Shures and Stantons. If there was clear cut consensus on the Stantons and Shures, there would be no raging debate in the 1970s.

I don’t share that opinion on the Stantons. But don’t misunderstand me, I love the Stantons and Pickerings. I don’t love all the Shures, either.

The M97xE was/is a poor example for Shure carts, and a poor substitute for the EEE. Like I said, much closer to the M97HE, and there are some good and affordable styli available, just to add the “modern” part to it.

 

[Evonimos]

Stanton 680EE is A, Shure M97xE is B.
I don't have a Stanton 681EEE, so a Stanton 680EE was the closest thing.

My point with those recordings is to show that tonally they are very close.
The much-talked truncated frequency response of M97xE is not really there in my opinion.
Never was a thing as far as I can tell.
Especially compared to many other vintage cartridges like Stanton/Pickering of similar specification.
Maybe it's my equipment which is low in input capacitance, or I am just deaf.
That's why I uploaded the files so you can hear for yourselves.

What I hear as limitations compared to that Stanton (and in general), has very little to do with frequency response up high.
It has to do with other things, like soundstage, impact and authority.