Stanton 681EEE New Cartridge Equivalents

[Wolfie62]

Then I got it right. My wife was wondering why I kept listening to the jazz tracks on my phone. I told her I was listening for the “sustain” in the symbols. A had brighter, more clear symbol hits, and that came through even on my old 5S iPhone. But I wasn’t about to commit to that based on my phone.

I have 79 cartridges that I rotate in and out. So I can hear and compare the strengths and weaknesses of different carts. The M97xE has weaknesses that really come out in comparisons.

Oddly, the cartridge that sounds closest to the M97xE is the AcuTex M307 II. Same rolled off treble, nice mids and bottom end. Virtually a dead ringer for the xE.

 

[Wolfie62]

I guess it’s just me. You had me thinking M97xE in the quote, and following.

I have a great many LPs where the 97xE just drops the sparkle and treble detail I listen for. “Air” comes from that treble extension. That’s one of the big differences I hear between the M97HE, with an Elliptical Stylus, vs the M97xE, also with an elliptical stylus. Your ability to hear that ghostly “air” is also dependent on the quality of the rest of the system, starting with the phono preamp.

I get that “air” in spades with the ADC carts, Empire 2000Z, 2000X, EDR.9, even the 1961 Empire 880P, Pickering XV15, 681EEE, AcuTex 310 III and II, Shure V15V/IV/xMR and Era IV M97, and even some of the old AT carts.

My wife even noticed how the 97xE sounds good, but is missing that extra dimension in its staging.

 

[Wolfie62]

“My point with those recordings is to show that tonally they are very close.
The much-talked truncated frequency response of M97xE is not really there in my opinion.”


Decided to remount the Shure M97xE this afternoon.

I listened to a couple of LPs that I had been listening to earlier using the 1968 ADC 220X(E) with an elliptical stylus.

Yea, I was reminded of why this Shure cart has only 20 hours on it. It has really good clarity, bass and midrange detail, but then it just stops there.

It’s warm, but very little “air”. Pleasant, but it leaves me wanting more. There are instruments missing. Background voices virtually gone; on one LP there is a quiet harmonica in the center-left channel. Gone. Low level cymbal brushes on another LP, gone, or barely there.

So, then I mounted the Stanton 681EEE with an inexpensive aftermarket stylus, just to make it “fair”. It’s the EVG Japan 4822-DEE.

Really? There is just no comparison. Dynamics, detail, wide soundstage, tight bass, it all returned. The EEE lacks the artificial warmth of the 97xE, but adds detail in spades. I could easily hear brushed cymbals, low level and “way-in-the-back” harmonica and other voices.

I swapped out styli on the 97xE, sliding on a .2x.7 elliptical N97ED. Treble improved, but not enough to restore missing information. I tried an original Shure N104 Elliptical Stylus, got about the same results as the 97ED. I tried the N97LT stylus. Again, about the same. Finally, I tried a Shure .3x.7 elliptical (M97ED), made for the Radio Shack RXT4 (M97 Era IV). Again, the same results; rolled off treble.

So, for the life of me, I cannot see why anyone would recommend the M97xE as a modern replacement for the Stanton 681EEE.




Styli for trial:

 

[Evonimos]

I was comparing the Stanton 680 to the Shure M97xE, both with OEM styli on them.
Like that, they are both on the warmer side compared to the average of other cartridges out there.

A good example of what i call 'average', would be the sound of a cartridge like the Audio Technica AT91.
That is the type sound that I'd consider 'middle ground', or 'neutral' tonally.

Things might change considerably when comparing the M97xE to a Stanton with an aftermarket styli on.
I have one for the Stanton 680 body and it is orders of magnitude more bright and detailed than my OEM ones.

 

[cafe latte]

I was comparing the Stanton 680 to the Shure M97xE, both with OEM styli on them.
Like that, they are both on the warmer side compared to the average of other cartridges out there.

A good example of what i call 'average', would be the sound of a cartridge like the Audio Technica AT91.
That is the type sound that I'd consider 'middle ground', or 'neutral' tonally.

Things might change considerably when comparing the M97xE to a Stanton with an aftermarket styli on.
I have one for the Stanton 680 body and it is orders of magnitude more bright and detailed than my OEM ones.

The AT91 has way better high frequency than a m97xe, the AT3600l from China for 20 bucks with the stock 0 6 conical ( very nice conical actually) sounds far nicer with way better highs than the m97xe

 

[Evonimos]

The AT91 has way better high frequency than a m97xe, the AT3600l from China for 20 bucks with the stock 0 6 conical ( very nice conical actually) sounds far nicer with way better highs than the m97xe

Yeah.
I agree.

The M97xE sounds a bit rolled-off and warmer when compared to something like the AT91 and even more so when compared to the AT3600L.
However, I frequently end up using warmer sounding cartridges more.
I guess It's a matter of equipment matching and above all, personal preference.

But I still have to insist on the fact that M97xE being comparatively rolled-off towards the high frequencies, isn't what makes it less pleasant. To myself at least.
For example Pickering XV15/150DJ is similarly rolled-off, or Shure M75CS plus many other cartridges, yet I enjoy them more than that Shure.
For me it is the lack of authority down low, less impact and general lack of dynamism that makes it less attractive.

However, let's count its positive attributes.
It is buttery smooth (great for Jazzy stuff) and tracks beautifully!
It has a brush (big plus imho) and is the last hi-fi cartridge from Shure. Ever.
Plus it has a beautifully embossed Greek letter Φ (symbol of mathematical Golden Ratio) on the front.

So, the above reasons alone, make it a worthwhile addition if you asked me.

 

[Wolfie62]

I don’t know why anyone would choose that “warmer” sound at the expense of upper end detail, or choose not to have smooth and detailed treble to go with the rest of it. You certainly don’t have to.

I chose the aftermarket stylus for the EEE because the NOS stylus absolutely blows the doors off of the 97xE. The aftermarket EEE stylus gave the xE a fighting chance; it doesn’t quite have the same upper end extension as the NOS EEE stylus. The NOS EEE is dynamic and silky smooth, never fatiguing. Tight clear bass, not thumpy and muddy like the xE. The EEE delivers very nice mid and upper detail without ever being harsh; it’s soundstage is legendary, wide deep and tall.

If you want smooth sound, you don’t have to roll off the high end to get it. You don’t have to settle for less, thinking you’re getting more.

As for tracking, a great many carts match the xE tracking. As for the brush, even the stock Stanton/Pickering brushes dissipate static, although they aren’t as effective at damping resonance.

It’s far easier to match the M97xE than it is to match the EEE. I have several carts that closely match the xE. The 1979 AcuTex M310 II is a dead ringer, but it’s bass is tighter. The 1968 ADC 220X has all the nice mids and bass, but silky smooth and extended high end definition and better imaging. The 1961 Empire 880P is warm, yet smooth and detailed, still much better than the xE.

I guess the difference is that I have a lot of carts to compare the xE to. 79 of them: ATs, Empires, ADCs, Shures, Nagatron, AcuTex, Pickering, Stanton, Azden, and at least 7 other brands.

I can listen to jazz and get every smooth detail of soft cymbals and edgy detail of horns, tight kick drums, and never have irritation. I get “warmth” if that’s the way it was performed and recorded. Without rolling off the treble details.

Empire 880P:

 

[Evonimos]

I don’t know why anyone would choose that “warmer” sound at the expense of upper end detail...

Well, it's simply down to personal taste.

Sometimes my ears just feel happier with the authority and impact of a heavy-tracking conical without the extended treble.

A good example of the above is that I sometimes prefer the Pickering XV15/150DJ (oem stylus) over the Stanton 680EE (oem stylus).
Same thing with the Shure SC35C.
For the same peculiar reason, I sometimes prefer its voluptuous, rolled-off character over the very well regarded AT3600L.

 

[Wolfie62]

I also don’t get the infatuation with the 3600 and AT95. Drab carts. Tinny sound from the 3600. Both lacking in detail.

But yes, personal tastes. I prefer an accurate cart. Just play what’s on the record. Don’t purposefully leave anything out, don’t emphasize what’s there.

But then, you might enjoy the warmth of Cerwin Vega or Bose speakers, too.

 

[Evonimos]

I also don’t get the infatuation with the 3600 and AT95. Drab carts. Tinny sound from the 3600. .

I'm suspecting that your ears operate quite differently than most folks.
Certainly different than mine.
Or you are operating on a rather unusual jig.

In any case, I wouldn't consider the AT3600L tinny and certainly not lacking in detail.
It has a balanced sound, with maybe a bit of more prominent top side.
It sounds almost identical to the Shure M44-7, both tonally and otherwise.

What do you think of the Shure M44-7?
Had any experience with it? Do you consider it tinny as well?
While it is not as heavy hitting in the lows as a Shure SC35C it isn't tinny by any means.
Neither is the very similar sounding AT3600L.

 

[Wolfie62]

Hmmm.

My ears are just fine, and so is my system.

The AT3600 sounds like an AT331LP but missing the mid definition, making it a little screamer. Tinny.

I have a full arsenal of Shure carts. Yes, I have the 44-7. I also have the M91/92/93/70/75/95/97HE/M97xE/104/110/111HE/V15 Type IV/V15V/V15VxMR/Shure Tracer 1, and numerous other clones. All with original+good aftermarket styli.

I also have an arsenal of ADC carts (18) , including the Astrion, 4 Integras, the ZLM, 4 XLMs, NAD 9300, various QLMs, the 220X, 770XE, 10E MKII and MKIV; Empire carts (9) including 2 EDR.9, 2000Z, 2000X, 4000 III. I have 8 AT carts, 4 AcuTex Tripole carts, 4 Nagatron carts, 7 Pickering/Stanton carts. 3 Ortofon carts, 4 Azden carts including PSX 40/Series 4, TRX 2, and others.

I know the Shure sound. I have MUCH to compare to, so I’m not making judgements in a vacuum. And I compare these to other carts.

All of these carts differ from one another. If they all sound the same to you, something is amiss at your end.

I change cartridges out on average 3 per day. I enjoy the differences.

Listening to the Shure V15 Type IV now. I’ll follow this with the Shure Tracer. Then probably back to the Empire EDR.9. Depends on my mood. None of them sound alike. The Shure M97xE is probably my least favorite Shure cart.

 

[cafe latte]

Hmmm.

My ears are just fine, and so is my system.

The AT3600 sounds like an AT331LP but missing the mid definition, making it a little screamer. Tinny.

I have a full arsenal of Shure carts. Yes, I have the 44-7. I also have the M91/92/93/70/75/95/97HE/M97xE/104/110/111HE/V15 Type IV/V15V/V15VxMR/Shure Tracer 1, and numerous other clones. All with original+good aftermarket styli.

I also have an arsenal of ADC carts (18) , including the Astrion, 4 Integras, the ZLM, 4 XLMs, NAD 9300, various QLMs, the 220X, 770XE, 10E MKII and MKIV; Empire carts (9) including 2 EDR.9, 2000Z, 2000X, 4000 III. I have 8 AT carts, 4 AcuTex Tripole carts, 4 Nagatron carts, 7 Pickering/Stanton carts. 3 Ortofon carts, 4 Azden carts including PSX 40/Series 4, TRX 2, and others.

I know the Shure sound. I have MUCH to compare to, so I’m not making judgements in a vacuum. And I compare these to other carts.

All of these carts differ from one another. If they all sound the same to you, something is amiss at your end.

I change cartridges out on average 3 per day. I enjoy the differences.

Listening to the Shure V15 Type IV now. I’ll follow this with the Shure Tracer. Then probably back to the Empire EDR.9. Depends on my mood. None of them sound alike. The Shure M97xE is probably my least favorite Shure cart.

I am not hearing what you describe from my AT3600l either, I have 50 carts some very expensive ones and I rate the AT3600l highly, it is anything but tinny, anything but tinny actually.
Chris

 

[Wolfie62]

I am not hearing what you describe from my AT3600l either, I have 50 carts some very expensive ones and I rate the AT3600l highly, it is anything but tinny, anything but tinny actually.
Chris

Well, there are also those that say the M97xE sounds just like a 681EEE, too.

By itself, the 3600 is not bad. In comparison with other carts, I would say it has a thin sound to it.

Perhaps mounting the 3600 after listening to the Astrion is not such a good idea. But it still has that quality after listening to one of several AT carts I have.

But the 3600l isn’t being compared to the 681EEE here, anyway.

 

[cafe latte]

Well, there are also those that say the M97xE sounds just like a 681EEE, too.

By itself, the 3600 is not bad. In comparison with other carts, I would say it has a thin sound to it.

Perhaps mounting the 3600 after listening to the Astrion is not such a good idea. But it still has that quality after listening to one of several AT carts I have.

But the 3600l isn’t being compared to the 681EEE here, anyway.

If someone compares the m97xe they are deaf, sorry not even close. Also to say the at3600l is thin is also wrong, I have over 50 carts and the last thing a at3600l is thin, it is many things but not thin.
Chris

 

[Evonimos]

Well, there are also those that say the M97xE sounds just like a 681EEE, too.

Where did you read that?
If you are referring to me, I never had a 681EEE to compare, or said anything of the sorts.

What I do have is a 680EE which I posted recording of, together with an identical of the M97xE.
Anyone interested, can go back and trace my posts.
And I said that the two share a similar tonal character.
Which they do or I am deaf..

For the record, you didn't come out to name which one of the two is the ..so obviously different M97xE.
Only to wait until I revealed them, to say how positively sure you were of what you were hearing..