Starting From Scratch

[Outland]

I am starting my audio system back up again from scratch after a long period of inactivity.

My budget is not large (under a grand) but I always fancy a challenge.

I have many questions, so I suppose I'll let you guys take it from here. I know almost nothing about brands, models, vintages, and whatnot; so I would really appreciate any help.

Thanks guys.

 

[AnalogDigit]

Hello, and welcome to AK. Do you want to go vintage or brand new equipment?

For vintage, their are a lot of choices to choose from. But keep in mind some equipment might need some work. But not to worry, that is why were here. If you don't like a particular piece of equipment, you can always for the most part sell it and get what you paid for it.

Any receivers from the major manufactures is pretty good. Some brands to look for are Pioneer, Sansui, Yamaha, Kenwood, Akai, Marantz, ect. There are also brands that are under the radar like Realistic you can pick up for a song. All have great tuner sections.

As for bookshelf speakers, I would look into Advent, Boston Acoustics, KEF, Yamaha, Pioneer to name a few. Speakers are more of a personal taste. It depends upon the room acoustics, what receiver/amp you are using and your own ears.

Others will chime in with their own suggestions.

 

[ZebraBlvd]

OK Outland I'll be the first in suggestions, BTW - glad you figured out your problem with the Technics, good job. :thmbsp: As AD pointed out, it comes down to your taste in sound. Always try to audition before buying if possible.

My suggestions will be purely biased, since I love my Sansui's. If a more modern look matters to ya, may I suggest a G-series receiver. Maybe a G-6700, or if you want to go hog wild a G-8000. With what you'll have to pay for a good one you will still have funds to buy some nice speakers.

Speaking of speakers, while not bookshelf but still somewhat un-obtruisive would be a set of Klipsch Heresy's. Beautiful looking and I think would meet your music needs. Here again, this is truly a biased opinion because I have owned these and truly love them.

Again as AD said, you will get many thoughts on this subject. Just let your ears be the deciding factor. Good Luck in your hunt.

 

[Outland]

Thanks Zebra.

Thank you for the welcome, AD. I have no problem working on stuff if I know what to do, so I suppose the knowledgable community around here can help me out if the need arises. What kind of work did you have in mind, just for reference?

I am probably going to go vintage, as that will likely provide me the highest quality for the money.

So you're saying that I should go the receiver-speakers route? That makes sense, as I'm sure the component setup will take up much more space and be more expensive.

As for receivers, would you be able to recommend a few well-known models that are known to be fairly priced and deliver quality sound?

 

[prisoners]

Cambridge Audio makes best sounding budget gear that I've heard. You can get a nice integrated amp and a CD player well within your budget. Keep your eyes and ears open for used speakers (way too many to suggest) in your area and you'll be in great shape. The nice thing about Cambridge is that all of thier products work very well together and look consistent. So if down the road you want a little more power from an amp you can still use the same cd player and it will look/sound great.

http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/default.php

 

[udii]

in your budget try to find
marantz 2245-2275
sansui 7070
pioneer sx 838 or higher

 

[bobaloniny]

What a great position you are actually in. To be able to build one piece at a time just basically unplug and plug in new is about best case scenario. Im confident if you take your time and with I guess a little guidance, you can come in way under budget with used gear. Not sure how handy you feel, but you may want to find the "Idiots Guide to Deoxit" sticky found at the top of General Audio board I believe. That little bit of controls cleaning would make all of the difference in whatever used machine you could end up with.
Alot of the main players have been mentioned as far as receivers go, and without making the definitive list, it may make sense to check out your local CL and see whats avail for what money, then just come back here and ask. Im sure you can find something very nice for under 150, more than likely under 100.

Not seeing any sense in messing with the tt, at least for now, it sounds like a stable situation. Let the rest of the gear come, then decide if you want to move on that.
The CD player question is interesting, never heard your machine so I cant say, but it seems you may want to head towards something dedicated to audio cd playing ( I could be wrong). Used hot ticket item would be a Philips or Magnavox made in Belgium. Another direction you may want to go is using a player just as a transport and having a stand alone DAC. Going there could expand your sources as with the right DAC you would feed it with the cd tansport or computer. If you thought that may be a nice idea, the concept could certainly be expanded on. Pricing would be less than 100 for a CDP, and probably2-300 for the latter option. The third possibility of course is a newer DVD player or CDP, and since I dont go that route, I really cant make any recommendation there.
Either way, that still leaves alot for speakers. You should probably elaborate on how big of a bookshelf speaker you would want, since they go from what you would think is a bookshelf speaker, to something the size of you were thinking it was a floorstander. Were you thinking actually hung on a wall, on stands, on shelves, or is there flexibility with that? Quite a bit of your budget can be devoted to speakers I think..but there again used market you can expect 300 max heading to under 100 in the right circumstances. Heresys would be nice, thats a big footprint..Energy Refence 22 is about as tall but much smaller footprint, B&W DM 12 is actually bookshelf sized. All coming in at or under the mark.
It sounds like the receiver is the biggest stick in the craw right now, so, as I suggested, one thing at a time. You indicate that you are in uncharted waters in this, so ask alot of questions.
You know, it occurs the first $25 you spend should be subscribing to AK so you can access Bartertown ( the subscribers classified section). Great gear, honestly represented, and good prices. Maybe in the position of not being so sure of ones self in the market place, its an advantage that you should consider strongly.
Good luck.

 

[Frank Sol]

If you go new look into Emotiva's gear

http://www.emotiva.com/

 

[Outland]

What a great position you are actually in. To be able to build one piece at a time just basically unplug and plug in new is about best case scenario. Im confident if you take your time and with I guess a little guidance, you can come in way under budget with used gear. Not sure how handy you feel, but you may want to find the "Idiots Guide to Deoxit" sticky found at the top of General Audio board I believe. That little bit of controls cleaning would make all of the difference in whatever used machine you could end up with.
Alot of the main players have been mentioned as far as receivers go, and without making the definitive list, it may make sense to check out your local CL and see whats avail for what money, then just come back here and ask. Im sure you can find something very nice for under 150, more than likely under 100.

Not seeing any sense in messing with the tt, at least for now, it sounds like a stable situation. Let the rest of the gear come, then decide if you want to move on that.
The CD player question is interesting, never heard your machine so I cant say, but it seems you may want to head towards something dedicated to audio cd playing ( I could be wrong). Used hot ticket item would be a Philips or Magnavox made in Belgium. Another direction you may want to go is using a player just as a transport and having a stand alone DAC. Going there could expand your sources as with the right DAC you would feed it with the cd tansport or computer. If you thought that may be a nice idea, the concept could certainly be expanded on. Pricing would be less than 100 for a CDP, and probably2-300 for the latter option. The third possibility of course is a newer DVD player or CDP, and since I dont go that route, I really cant make any recommendation there.
Either way, that still leaves alot for speakers. You should probably elaborate on how big of a bookshelf speaker you would want, since they go from what you would think is a bookshelf speaker, to something the size of you were thinking it was a floorstander. Were you thinking actually hung on a wall, on stands, on shelves, or is there flexibility with that? Quite a bit of your budget can be devoted to speakers I think..but there again used market you can expect 300 max heading to under 100 in the right circumstances. Heresys would be nice, thats a big footprint..Energy Refence 22 is about as tall but much smaller footprint, B&W DM 12 is actually bookshelf sized. All coming in at or under the mark.
It sounds like the receiver is the biggest stick in the craw right now, so, as I suggested, one thing at a time. You indicate that you are in uncharted waters in this, so ask alot of questions.
You know, it occurs the first $25 you spend should be subscribing to AK so you can access Bartertown ( the subscribers classified section). Great gear, honestly represented, and good prices. Maybe in the position of not being so sure of ones self in the market place, its an advantage that you should consider strongly.
Good luck.

Wow, thanks for all the info! This helps a lot.

I am going used, and there are a sea of different models out there; so I'd like to run most things by you guys if you don't mind.

I really like that you mentioned I could get something in the 100-200 range. A receiver in that range would be perfect for my budget.

As for receivers, I looked at the mentioned Marantz, Sansui, and Pioneer. They are all nice, and are all around $200-300.

Some have some lights out on some panels, is this fixable? Or does it indicate that the receiver was somehow mishandled, and that this is just an early symptom of total failure later on?

I appreciate the good luck, I'll need it.

 

[prisoners]

The 2226 is a great unit. Anything from that era will require some fixing, it's just the nature of electronics. Labor rates run roughly $80 hr so if you aren't going to fix it yourself factor that in. A $100 amplifier can turn into a $400 very fast. Not trying to say don't buy an old unit, just don't do it because you think it's the cheapest way. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.

 

[prisoners]

One more thing: Pony up $25 and become a subscriber here. That gets you access to Bartertown, this sites list of for sale items. You'll get a great deal on all sorts of well-cared for items That $25 investment will be returned many times over.

 

[bobaloniny]

The Marantz is a good receiver for sure. Listen to it..
Bulbs may screw in, or a bayonet mount, or be soldered in. Normally the hard part is getting to them sometimes depending on the receiver. Its not an abuse thing, its just light bulbs dont last forever. Also, if you cant find a schematic, or, the bulbs arent marked, you may have to sue a meter to figure out the voltage of the bulb.
Those DM 12..as long as its just cleaning, would well be worth 200 imho..as always, audition, and dont be afraid to push the volume on those, theres no limit, they have an internal protection circuit...Google it. Other thing is, they have alot more low end than what you would expect...love mine.
Just keep checking and checking back...we loves to helps.

 

[Anubis]

Wow, thanks for all the info! This helps a lot.

I am going used, and there are a sea of different models out there; so I'd like to run most things by you guys if you don't mind.

I really like that you mentioned I could get something in the 100-200 range. A receiver in that range would be perfect for my budget.

My local CL is pretty much barren. I live on the East Coast, and around here folks don't seem to care much about technology, much less hi-fi audio. I'll keep looking, but I have low hopes for that venue. There is one Pioneer SX-3700 offered for a stiff $110 with a crack in the glass panel. It doesn't look that great, so I'm probably going to pass on that, unless you guys think that's foolish. There are also some unmarked Sansui speakers, and I don't really know what to think about those. They also look huge. There's also a Sansui Model 2000 Receiver for $200, but I don't know if it's any good.

Indeed, I don't know much about the CD player; but I think for now I'll leave it and the TT as is and only approach that topic when I get everything else squared away.

I am interested that you mentioned wall-mountable speakers. I have consistently heard that it is impossible to produce good-sounding speakers that are light and thin enough to be mountable. Wall-mountable speakers would be ideal, but if they come with a reduction in sonic quality; I have no problem with bookshelf speakers. I think that if they are around 8" width and depth, that would be ideal.

I was thinking that if I go bookshelves, they would be at home on little stands to the left and right of the room. Floor-standers are nice, but I assume that shipping charges for those must be pretty huge. The Reference 22s, at least judging by pictures, are quite huge. I'm afraid that they just won't fit in with the decor of the room. There's a listing of the B & W DM12s on the 'bay for 200 right now. They're pretty nice-looking, if a bit dirty. Are they worth pursuing?

As for receivers, I looked at the mentioned Marantz, Sansui, and Pioneer. They are all nice, and are all around $200-300. There is a Marantz 2226B on the 'bay on the bidding block. It looks pretty nice, if not a little big. Do these receivers really sound good? They all seem quite old and dinged-up, and I don't know if that's a good thing or not.

Some have some lights out on some panels, is this fixable? Or does it indicate that the receiver was somehow mishandled, and that this is just an early symptom of total failure later on?

I appreciate the good luck, I'll need it.

There are a lot of nice vintage receivers about. Also, don't be decieved by a low WPC rating. You have a small room I believe you said. You would be surprised waht something like a Marantz 2238b can do and it's only 30wpc or around that. (I happen to have one and love it, even for a room that's a bit bigger than 10x11). Receivers like that can be had for a song....well, almost.
Don't be put off by minor stuff such as bulbs burnt out or scratchiness in controls. A little Deoxit will take care of scratchiness 98% of the time and bulbs are easy to replace as most are screw in or bayonet type. Getting to them however, can be tricky sometimes depending on the receiver. (I've replaced all the bulbs in my Pioneer sx990 and Marantz 2238b with little to no problem, except with the meters).

You say you want to have CD ability. You might want to look into going new or recently used for a CD player. Older CD players can be little buggers as some may not play home-made CDs if you have any of those. They can also just be tired out and cause problems. No need to put the CD player off for now. If you have the funds pick one up. Yes, put the TT on hold for now, that's a whole different thing you can get into later.

As for speakers, that's very subjective and only your ears can tell you what you'll like. Do however ask about any you find there are folks here who really know vintage speakers. I'm not one of them, so I ask as well. (I'm more familiar with new speakers).

Ask lots of questions, look on more then ebay and do consider subscribing for access to Batertown. You can buy with confidence there.

 

[Outland]

Are there any exceptional models for a fair price that you know of?

I'm considering becoming a subscriber, I'll have to think about it.

 

[Soundminded]

The problem with the old Marantz receivers is that they are collectables and will cost more than comparable units that aren't. Look for Pioneer, Kenwood, Sansui, Harman Kardon, even JVC. Shop at used audio shops where they service equipment. Newer equipment doesn't usually have magnetic phono cartridge inputs anymore. Receivers from the 1970s and 1980s are usually good bets. Look for at least 50 watts per channel.

There were some very good bookshelf speakers from the 60s and 70s. These may need some work like replacing capacitors and refoaming woofers. If you don't want to do this yourself, pay someone capable it will still be worth it. Look for models by Acoustic Research, KLH, Advent, Allison. IMO a Toshiba DVD player for about $40 makes an excellent CD player except you need to connect it to a TV to see all of the functions. An old JVC ZX431 is very good, so are other old JVCs. I think there's a model 258 something that's good. If you buy new under $1000 you will not get as much for your money but there are some good speakers made by Polk. A Sherwood receiver looks good. You might want to add a subwoofer and you'll need an external magnetic phono preamp. I'd also get an inexpensive 10 band graphic equalizer like a BSR. J&R Music World has some excellent prices for new, even better than Parts Express. Check out reviews on C-Net.

http://www.jr.com/

 

[grillebilly]

I can't disagree with any of the suggestions so far. But I'll throw in my two cents.
Since you listen to CD's mostly but still want a "soft" sound, I would be looking at speakers that are not too bright. So some Boston Acoustic A series (150's?) are a great choice and can be had very cheap. Most will need surrounds, but it's easy to do and if they do, you can get them for next to nothing. Polk Monitor 7's are another fine choice, or some of the many Advent models (ask around which ones).
Marantz gear is oh so nice, but also gets bigger money than most. I've seen the early single-digit Sansui receivers go for under a c-note or a CR series Yamaha, both of which will make you happy.
It is nice having new gear, but if you are just getting your feet wet you can put something nice together for about 3 bills or less going vintage. If you are not satisfied, you can usually flip and get your money back.
Buy local if at all possible so you can listen to it before you buy.
Don't be in a big hurry...it's a mistake go to the grocery store while you are hungry.
There are so many ways to go, all I can advise is do some homework and get a listen before spending.
Good luck hunting!

 

[prisoners]

I'm pretty interested in those B & W speakers. Unfortunately, they aren't available locally so I can't audition them. Would you be able to describe their sound in words? Or rather, in your opinion, are they good speakers that have a nice warm sound? I quite dislike harsh and thin sound, so I hope these speakers don't have those qualities. Also, what do you think of the Sansui Model 2000 receiver and those unmarked Sansui speakers?

prisoners, what kind of fixing would be required for the Marantz and other receivers of that era? If it's just cleaning, I suppose I can handle it (with the help of you guys of course). If it's anything more, it could be a problem. That 2226 is looking pretty nice so far. What is a fair price for one of those?

Anubis, I don't have any home-made CDs but I doubt I will have money left over for a CD player right now. If I do, are there any exceptional models for a fair price that you know of?

I'm considering becoming a subscriber, I'll have to think about it.

Expect several of the capacitors to need replacing and I wouldn't be surprised if a few resistors were out of spec as well. Were talking about a 35 year old electronic components . None of which are necessarily expensive to repair but if you are watching every dollar with this purchase it can quickly escalate. Running an amplifier that powers up and outputs sound but needing repair can be dangerous, especially to whatever it's connected to. The people here are honest and knowledgeable. The $25 subscription fee is the best money that I've ever spent in this hobby. There's equipment listed right now that will fulfill what you are looking for.

 

[Anubis]

I'm pretty interested in those B & W speakers. Unfortunately, they aren't available locally so I can't audition them. Would you be able to describe their sound in words? Or rather, in your opinion, are they good speakers that have a nice warm sound? I quite dislike harsh and thin sound, so I hope these speakers don't have those qualities. Also, what do you think of the Sansui Model 2000 receiver and those unmarked Sansui speakers?

prisoners, what kind of fixing would be required for the Marantz and other receivers of that era? If it's just cleaning, I suppose I can handle it (with the help of you guys of course). If it's anything more, it could be a problem. That 2226 is looking pretty nice so far. What is a fair price for one of those?

Anubis, I don't have any home-made CDs but I doubt I will have money left over for a CD player right now. If I do, are there any exceptional models for a fair price that you know of?

I'm considering becoming a subscriber, I'll have to think about it.

This has been mentioned a few times already, but it looks like it bares repeating. When it comes to speakers used or new, you really have to hear them first. It's foolish to buy them without hearing or based on somebodies description of how they sound because everybody hears differently. What sounds great to someone may sound like crap to you and be too painful to listen to.
As for CD players I can suggest new ones, but they will be over $150. I don't know what your budget is, only that it's under $1k, that could be anything. So it's hard to advise in any detail.
If you already have a DVD player you can use it in the meantime. Eventually you'll want to get a dedicated CD player. If your DVD player requires you to turn on the TV to use it for anything, you might want to consider a different DVD player. If the DVD player has a remote though it should also have a basic display and that's all you need and you won't need to turn on the TV to use it.

 

[bobaloniny]

Never heard another pair of these besides my own, so..
They sound very large to me, like they are about 3 times their size. Very smooth, a little lean towards warm even. Plenty of treble there, but it doesnt stand out, the 2 drivers blend very well. Ive had them hooked up to several diff receivers and amps, from 20 something wpc Sansui 800 on up to 200 watt per channel SAE, seemed to play well with all of them.
Im happy with any of the 70s Sansui receivers, Ive had a few and never run across a turkey yet, they all sound great to my old ears.
Unmarked Sansui speakers? Im personally not a great fan of their speakers, though some are. To me its strike one Sansui speakers, strike 2 unmarked. Thats not to say that if you went to listen to them, and loved what you heard, that youd be wrong.. or right. Its really subjective..we all hear a little differently or at least perceive.
Ones I havent noticed being recommended here though maybe a little bigger than what you want, Dynaco A25. One of the most popular of vintage speakers, look for them they are well worth it.

 

[Outland]

This has been mentioned a few times already, but it looks like it bares repeating. When it comes to speakers used or new, you really have to hear them first. It's foolish to buy them without hearing or based on somebodies description of how they sound because everybody hears differently. What sounds great to someone may sound like crap to you and be too painful to listen to.

I suppose. I'll try my best.

I am indeed watching my money, so I'd like to avoid escalating costs like prisoners mentioned. Perhaps I should look for a slightly newer receiver that still has some years left in it? From what people say though, it seems like those late '70s receivers are the ones to get.

It is nice having new gear, but if you are just getting your feet wet you can put something nice together for about 3 bills or less going vintage.

That's pretty much all I'm trying to do.