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Steam cleaner

guitarman50

guitarman50

Super Member
I've been reading alot about people that like to steam clean their dirty LP's. Does this offer an advantage to do in combination with vacuum based RCM? If so does someone have a link to a tutorial on the correct way to do it. And more importantly what model of steam cleaner is best and where can I get one? I'm in Canada so would a place like Home Depot have one?
 
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Yes, some people claim they get good results using steam, and there are many it appears who use steam in conjunction with a Vacuum RCM.

I can recognize the cost advantage, that a steam cleaner is relatively inexpensive.

But I question its effectiveness, and what degree of possible damage is occuring to the record with this process?

I assume that no matter what process one uses, whether it be a Spin Clean Machine, or a Keith Monks RCM, dependent upon processes-techniques, cleaning fluids used, physical, and chemical variances, that one may be correcting one, or more forms of problems, but yet creating others in the cleaning process.

What I'm tring to say, is that probably all forms-methods do result in harm in some fashion. And that the most important goal that one should strive for, is doing the least amount of damage.

As examples, overly harsh cleaners may very well attack, and remove many of the contaminants, but that they themselves have caused damage to the surface, and the groove. It is a well known fact, that high concentrations of alcohols, or products containing alcohols that are left on the record's surface too long can damage the vinyl.

I would assume heat in any form, can be another source of damage of the surface, and groove. Problem is, that often such damage will not be easily discernable-recognizable to the naked eye.

My thoughts are just what they are, food for thought, and I surely do not wish getting into lengthy debates about methods, and their virtues, and possible issues. This will have to be an instance in which each user uses the methods they feel work best for them. Mark
 
Thanks for the response. Yeah maybe I should leave well enough alone. I have the spin clean that I do an initial cleaning on dirty LP's and my VPI 16.5 that I do on every one of my records. The results have been a dramatic improvement on everyone. Maybe I should be satisfied with what I'm doing.
 
guitarman50 said:
Thanks for the response. Yeah maybe I should leave well enough alone. I have the spin clean that I do an initial cleaning on dirty LP's and my VPI 16.5 that I do on every one of my records. The results have been a dramatic improvement on everyone. Maybe I should be satisfied with what I'm doing.
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I too own the VPI 16.5 You may possibly know this, from my responses in other similar threads here.

I think everyone here would agree (note how I'm trying hard to stay in "safe" territory here!) that any RCM, whether it is a KAB Unit, or a uber expensive Monks, Loricraft, Clearaudio, VPI, Hannl, etc, will only work as good as the solutions, and clean water rinses used with it.

That these machines cannot magically remove the contaminants found on the record-groove if the cleaners themselves are inefficient, or as well in some form harm the vinyl.

That better cleaning solutions, made properly, will be more effective, and will substantially aid the work that the RCM has to do, which is come along after, and remove those contaminants that are in a suspended solution.

I think your money would be much better spent on trying a few different brands of cleaners-rinses, and then use the one which you feel does the best job, for the money spent.

There are of course commercial cleaners that have varying degrees of effectiveness, and those that may be on the mild side, that do not thoroughly clean the record first time out, there's no law that says those processes cannot be repeated on the RCM.

The downsides with such though, are the increased time at the machine, and the increased costs by needing to use a larger quantities of those fluids to do the job. Mark
 
Sort of like Laundry Detergents, One might note that a cheaper product like Biz, or Sun costs much less than Cheer, or Tide, but often one also notices, that the cheaper detergents do not get the clothes as clean. Or that to equal the level of cleanliness, one has to use larger quantities of a lesser,cheaper brand. This then, is not actually cost effective.

And as well, another analogy, is one doesn't use Pine Sol to wash their clothes with, as this product was not designed for such. I feel the same holds true with many DIY concoctions, such as Windex, Spray, and Wash , Simple Green, etc. etc.

They all may very well be very effective cleaners for what they were designed for. But none were specifically designed for the use on vinyl records. Mark
 
Right now I'm using the Disc Doctor quick clean. My VPI cleaner sits unused. I also use the disc doctor brush. I'm looking at buying an extra brush and extra wand. Right now I clean the brush and wand after 3 LP's. My results are great. The LP's are dramatically improved. I may look in to trying other cleaners.
 
Guitarman50 re the steam cleaner I'm in agreement with Mark that there is a chance of damage to the vinyl from the heat of the steam cleaner. In general you want to use the mildest cleaner and method possible to get the job done. Whats worked for me is the AIVS fluids and Last applicators to spread the fluids and a VPI 16.5 RCM to suction the fluids off the LP. I also use a second VPI wand for the final rinse with AIVS ultra-pure water. So far after many months of use the results have been excellent.
 
majick47 said:
Guitarman50 re the steam cleaner I'm in agreement with Mark that there is a chance of damage to the vinyl from the heat of the steam cleaner. In general you want to use the mildest cleaner and method possible to get the job done. Whats worked for me is the AIVS fluids and Last applicators to spread the fluids and a VPI 16.5 RCM to suction the fluids off the LP. I also use a second VPI wand for the final rinse with AIVS ultra-pure water. So far after many months of use the results have been excellent.
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I've seen the AIVS fluid mentioned many times but don't know what it is. Is that an acronym or is that actually the name of it? Do you have a link to it?
 
Guitarman,
AIVS stands for "Audio Intelligent Vinyl Solutions".

Their website is www.osageaudio.com

I, like Majick47 use nothing but AIVS products. IMO, they are not only excellent, they are the very best, a truly cutting edge cleaning system that has little to no peer.

They can be bought direct from the owner of the company, Jim Pendelton, or from his dealer network. I've always bought direct myself. Jim Pendelton, the owner-president of the company is a breeze to deal with-talk with. One of the nicest fellas in the audio business, a true gentleman.

They make a number of cleaning products, all are excellent, and there's some cleaning system that will be personally suited for you. I won't go into detail with this post too much.

There are other fine products also available out there. I understand the Mobile Fidelity "One" cleaner, and a MoFi Pure Water Rinse which is said to be quite good too.

Then there's Walker Prelude, another said to be top notch cleaning system. Yep, you might pay a little more, but you won't regret the expenditure. I haven't, with the AIVS products.

Jim will often do a package deal at a savings for a customer. I feel just his knowledgeable advice is totally worth the price of admission.

I email Jim P on a virtual daily basis, but generally, we chat about everything under the sun, and 96% of the time never chat about record cleaners. Everything else from soup to nuts. He's a good guy, and you won't be in any way disappointed with his fantastic products.

There's a few here I made converts of the AIVS system. My buddy Grainger comes to mind as one. Mark
 
Thanks for the link markd51. I find the Doctor disk wash is giving great results but I am new to this vinyl wash thing and do want to try a couple of different products. I'll look in to giving it a try.
 
guitarman50 said:
Thanks for the link markd51. I find the Doctor disk wash is giving great results but I am new to this vinyl wash thing and do want to try a couple of different products. I'll look in to giving it a try.
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I too used Disc Doctor's products for a good number of years, his Miracle cleaner.

Very good too, no complaints. Mark
 
I steam my records using a GE steam cleaner similar to this one I found at Walmart. I've found that a steam jet injected into the wash and rinse solutions applied to the record will increase their effectiveness. How this works I'm not sure, but the result comes very close to a PVA peel. During the steam action the vinyl does warm slightly and may warp, but this is temporary and doesn't appear to be harmful.
 
ripblade said:
I steam my records using a GE steam cleaner similar to this one I found at Walmart. I've found that a steam jet injected into the wash and rinse solutions applied to the record will increase their effectiveness. How this works I'm not sure, but the result comes very close to a PVA peel. During the steam action the vinyl does warm slightly and may warp, but this is temporary and doesn't appear to be harmful.
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If the record warps I can't see how its temporary. I did something like this now I have 2 LP's sitting at my local stereo shop waiting to be put in to a record flattening machine.
 
guitarman50 said:
If the record warps I can't see how its temporary. I did something like this now I have 2 LP's sitting at my local stereo shop waiting to be put in to a record flattening machine.
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Well if it isn't temporary, I haven't noticed - the records seem to lie just as flat. I've noticed sometimes they seem to lie flatter...more relaxed, as though the tension in the vinyl that was causing the warp was reduced.

Perhaps it comes down to technique. I'm not steaming the record 'dry' - I'm steaming it when it has a layer of solution or water on the surface to take up the heat. All the steam jet seems to do is shake things a up a bit. At the distance I spray from (6-8 inches), the steam is almost cool to the touch. Makes me wonder about the antiseptic claims on the steam cleaner infomercials.
 
ripblade said:
Well if it isn't temporary, I haven't noticed - the records seem to lie just as flat. I've noticed sometimes they seem to lie flatter...more relaxed, as though the tension in the vinyl that was causing the warp was reduced.

Perhaps it comes down to technique. I'm not steaming the record 'dry' - I'm steaming it when it has a layer of solution or water on the surface to take up the heat. All the steam jet seems to do is shake things a up a bit. At the distance I spray from (6-8 inches), the steam is almost cool to the touch. Makes me wonder about the antiseptic claims on the steam cleaner infomercials.
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I guess calling it steam is a misnomer. Actually, it's just hot water you're squirting on the record. Probably in the 130-140F temperature range.

I've seen some of the youtube vids of the use of steam, where the record warps considerably when the hot water is applied. Yes, then it appears to relax, and flatten after the heat is withdrawn.

What effect this stretching-contracting of the record imparts to the surface of the vinyl, I have no idea?

Generally, if the cleaning product is good, "shaking things up a bit" usually can be adequately accomlished with a good quality cleaning brush to agitate the solution on the record.

What I do with any of the AIVS cleaning solutions (#15 pre-cleaner-enzymatic, or super cleaner), is I apply, insure complete coverage of the product to the vinyl, with the applicator brush, with absolutely no downward pressure, then let the product sit a number of minutes. Generally about 4-5 minutes is good in most average cases.

Only after that period of sitting will I then begin to do an agitation of the fluids on the record. Again, I do not apply any downward pressure on the Brush-Brush Pad. By pressing down, this flattens the bristle of the brush, and probably lessens its effectiveness. It also raises the chances of placing a greater degree of micro-scratches into the vinyl. The dirt in fluid suspension then can act like an abrasive slew.

I liken it to taking a concours automobile through an auto car wash, or hand washing it. The hand washing of course is going to be more gentle, and less likelyhood of deeply scratching the finish, correct?

I feel the same holds true with the record. A gentle touch is always best. It is important with any cleaning product you use, no matter if DIY, or commercial.

It was another reason why I favorably selected the VPI 16.5 RCM, in that I can totally control the degree-amount of pressure of any cleaning brushes used upon the record.

Giving those products the proper time to do their jobs is a key element.

Ther importance of a final rinse is something I cannot stress enough. Mark
 
I have steam cleaned well over 1000 lp's using a McCullough floor model with a long hose extension, works flawlessly and is a nice compliment to my Nitty Gritty 2.5. Never had one issue with it and I have placed some insanely rare LP's thru this process and my ultrasonic cleaner as well.

As for cleaner, I have tried the "designer" brands and settled on Crystal Green (Industrial simple green with no color or fragrance) and Sporicidin. For water I use the stuff you get at Whole Foods that is triple cleaned, you bring your own jug.
 
Unless you hold the steam cleaning device close enough to the record surface so that the surface is within the 1/4" or so from the nozzle where you can't see anything, you are not cleaning with steam. Just very hot water.

Now, I'm not saying this very hot water won't be effective loosening contaminants from the groove surfaces but since this very hot water is above the melting point of record vinyl, I'm hesitant.

I think I'll stick with safer methods.

Doug
 
While your investigating all this you should check out the wood glue thread. It's quite enlightening to say the least and many comparisons with most/all the commercial solutions out there. Some favorable and some not. Some say use the glue once then maintain with standard cleaning systems.
 
I've steam cleaned many LPs with no ill effects. Using a steamer (like this one)made an audible difference to me in reducing pops and clicks. Use the steamer in conjunction with a VPI 16.5 vacuum cleaner. Steaming is the first step, vacuum, AIVS cleaning fluid, brush, vacuum, distilled water rinse, brush, vacuum, air dry in a dish rack, carbon fiber brush to removed static just before dropping the needle.
 
Here is my cleaner

My Routine:

Place LP on old platter mounted on workbench, place groovmaster label protector on LP. Spray on some cleaning fluid, roatate by hand while applying back and forth motion with VPI brush.

Place on Nitty Gritty 2.5FI turntable again with label protector. While the side down is spinning steam clean the "UP" side while applying the Nitty Gritty brush to the "UP" side.


Flip Steamed side and vacuum. Then inject fluid from NG2.5 container (For me it is super clean whole foods water since I already applied cleaner) and spin, while the steamed side is now spinning I steam the "UP" side.

Vacuum the first side of the water and flip, vacuum and inject water and vacuum.

If the LP is really noisy I will put it in the ultrasonic.
 
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